Did Shaq really carry Kobe

[Flamboyant]

The issue is not Kobe this or shaq that. Its Kobe's fans vs MJ's fans. The war started back in 2002 when Michael was with the wizards. The young generation who never watched michael in his prime believed that the Wizards Jordan was the real Michael Jordan. This was a mistake on their part. They assumed that Michael was overrated just by watching his play with the wizards. So right there, they started declaring kobe as better than mike all of a sudden. The comparisons didn't start until mike was back with the wizards. Thats how is legacy was tarnished because had Michael never came back, no one would ever have this conversation. You know why? Because to comparing someone to Mike would have been like comparing one to absolute perfection.

OK, I was watching the NBA way earlier(when Jordan was a bull), but I'd want an answer from you about a question, and you can pretend that I started to watch NBA, when MJ was a wizard.

Can you tell me, why some guys like me(who think Kobe is the GOAT), don't think that Iverson, Vince, T-Mac, are better than Mike also?

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On more serious note, you can say that MJ is better than Kobe, thats fine with me. But you can't say he's "inarguably" better than him, as player wise they are alikes, and both have some weapon on their game, that seperate them better from each other in those certain things. Some will like Kobe better, and some will like MJ.

[Jacks3]

OK, I was watching the NBA way earlier(when Jordan was a bull), but I'd want an answer from you about a question, and you can pretend that I started to watch NBA, when MJ was a wizard.

Can you tell me, why some guys like me(who think Kobe is the GOAT), don't think that Iverson, Vince, T-Mac, are better than Mike also?

----

On more serious note, you can say that MJ is better than Kobe, thats fine with me. But you can't say he's "inarguably" better than him, as player wise they are alikes, and both have some weapon on their game, that seperate them better from each other in those certain things. Some will like Kobe better, and some will like MJ.

Why do you think Kobe is the G.O.A.T.

[dejordan]

hey! it's revisionist history time and idiotic generalizing term time in the same thread. shaq didn't carry kobe. shaq was the laker's first option. every play they ran when he was in stemmed from him catching the ball in the low post (or moving to a postion where the defense compromised its spacing to prevent him from catching the ball), and then either he scored, somebody wound up with an open shot, or kobe got an easy one on one opportunity when the ball swung to the weakside. that's how they played. it was a game plan that worked to the tune of 3 titles & 4 finals appearances in 7 years (5 years under phil jackson).

they didn't dump it to shaq because kobe couldn't score. they dumped it to shaq because shaq made it easier for kobe and everyone else to score (hell, old broke shaq did the same thing for wade and the heat in 05 and 06). could kobe have been more of a focal point? probably. but it would not have made shaq better for kobe to go one on 5 the way it made kobe better when shaq did, so they didn't play that way. i always felt like kobe was the best second option as a scorer that i ever saw. maybe not as good as the wilt / baylor / west trio, but better than any #2 scorer i've ever seen.

also kobe deserves a lot of credit for taking over when shaq would get hurt (i know their winning %age fell off dramatically, but come on. you don't lose your only decent center and first option and not miss a beat) and when shaq's retarded free throw shooting jeopardized leads at the end of games.

[dejordan]

On more serious note, you can say that MJ is better than Kobe, thats fine with me. But you can't say he's "inarguably" better than him, as player wise they are alikes, and both have some weapon on their game, that seperate them better from each other in those certain things. Some will like Kobe better, and some will like MJ.

i still haven't ever heard this from anyone old enough to have seen mike play through the 80s and early 90s. if your vision of mike starts with a 33 year old, then i'd agree. very similar, and i could totally see thinking kobe was the better player. but if you look before that ... i just don't see it. i mean by the stats, by the wins, by the individual physical abilities, by the skills. imo when mike was kobe's age (the 1993 season), he was noticably quicker, stronger, and more expolsive, a better scorer, rebounder, passer, leader, defender ... the only thing i'd really say kobe is better at is making long shots. about 20 feet and out. but if you judged them by the same number of seasons played, i think it would be current kobe v. 97 jordan, and i'd consider current kobe better than a 34 year jordan.

[goldgrill4me]

just go back to my win shares post early in the thread it shows shaq certainly played the largest part in lakers wins early on, but he didn't do it anywhere near by himself and the final two trips to the finals it was kobe who played as big a part or bigger

Unless these numbers are wrong, I dont see how kobe was better in the last two finals than shaq. Shaq's numbers are clearly superior, your win share means little when looking at these stats. Im not saying Shaq carried kobe(other than the first chip) but he certainly was the best player on the team.

2000-2001 Finals

Shaq scored 44/28/30/34/29. He shot 63-110. He averaged 33 PPG and shot 57% from the field.

Kobe scored 15/31/32/19/26. He shot 44-106. He averaged 24.6 PPG and shot 42% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this series Shaq didn't score below 28 and averaged 9 more points a game. He also shot 15% better from the field. Kobe had 3 games where he was under Shaq's low for the series and scored less than 20 in two games as well.

2001-2002 Finals

Shaq scored 36/40/34/34. He shot 50-84. He averaged 36 PPG and shot 60% from the field.

Kobe scored 22/24/36/25. He shot 36-70. He averaged 26.8 PPG and shot 51% from the field.

Advantage- Shaq. In this 4 game series Shaq once again averaged 9 more points a game and shot 9% better from the field. He didn't score below 34 in this series, while Kobe only had one 30 point game.

[Emile]

By the way, despite the FACT that Shaq was pretty easily the more dominant player on those teams, and the player more responsible for their success, it's wrong to suggest that he "carried" Kobe. Players of Kobe's caliber don't get carried; they can be the lesser of two players when one is a top 7 all-time player at his absolute peak, but they do not get "carried." Except maybe for 2000. :)

The most honest post in the topic, IMO.

I don't expect to see much sound reasoning here because I believe Kobe just can't win with some. Most here, for that matter.
If people now are arguing that Gasol, Bynum or Odom were more important than him or single him out for every bad game, always looking at the negative side of things, even when he wins, then how do you expect that person to say anything other than "Shaq did carry Kobe"? Again, we don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.

Kobe is a basketball legend so anyway, as far as I'm concerned, whether one thinks he was carried to Shaq, was his equal, was lesser of the two and whatnot, somehow doesn't interest me much anymore.
That was 200 years ago and as far as Kobe and the Lakers, I'm living well in the present.

What bothers me though and it bothers me really much is the ridiculous argumentation that it's Kobe fans who make Kobe hated. LOL, it's the single most ridiculous thing that can be read on this board and I believe that is saying something.
It simply isn't going that way, things don't work like that.
Your reason for the Kobe hatred are much deeper, fans just add to it and make you more annoyed but the root of hatred is Kobe himself, not the fans. Fans are an outside factor and don't provoke such feelings within you, the general dislike for Kobe is already there, well established, him probably rubbing you the wrong way. Why I think you use the fans for is to try to reason your hate but I bet deep down that none of you believe it's the fans fault either.
Fans simply aren't that strong of a factor, they might add to the picture but are not the cause. MJ has just as many irrational fans but they won't make you hate MJ, same goes for LeBron, same goes for AI, Manu, anyone really.

[Loki]

So? All that shows is that MJ wanted the scoring title.

Actually, what it shows is that Jordan can blend his high scoring and production into a team concept and have success and Kobe can't, probably because he's less efficient and his style of play (the style that generates his production) isn't as conducive to team ball.

Kobe has never proven that he can blend all-time level production and team success. The one season where he's arguably been on an all-time level production-wise (2006), his team didn't do much. Now that he's scaled his game back, the team flourishes. Now, don't get me wrong, all great players scale their individual games back for the sake of the team, even Jordan -- but Jordan was still able to combine top-tier production and success in a way that Kobe never has and imo never will.

[Manute for Ever!]

Actually, what it shows is that Jordan can blend his high scoring and production into a team concept and have success and Kobe can't, probably because he's less efficient and his style of play (the style that generates his production) isn't as conducive to team ball.

Kobe has never proven that he can blend all-time level production and team success. The one season where he's arguably been on an all-time level production-wise (2006), his team didn't do much. Now that he's scaled his game back, the team flourishes. Now, don't get me wrong, all great players scale their individual games back for the sake of the team, even Jordan -- but Jordan was still able to combine top-tier production and success in a way that Kobe never has and imo never will.

What I tried to show without having to write so much

[Loki]

On more serious note, you can say that MJ is better than Kobe, thats fine with me. But you can't say he's "inarguably" better than him,

Sure you can. Because it's true.

[Jacks3]

Actually, what it shows is that Jordan can blend his high scoring and production into a team concept and have success and Kobe can't, probably because he's less efficient and his style of play (the style that generates his production) isn't as conducive to team ball.

Kobe has never proven that he can blend all-time level production and team success. The one season where he's arguably been on an all-time level production-wise (2006), his team didn't do much. Now that he's scaled his game back, the team flourishes. Now, don't get me wrong, all great players scale their individual games back for the sake of the team, even Jordan -- but Jordan was still able to combine top-tier production and success in a way that Kobe never has and imo never will.

Not really. Kobe scored 28 PPG on a 57 win team this year. He also led the league in total pts scored. He easily could have led in the league in scoring but only took 20 FGA per game.
Kobe=G.O.A.T

[Jacks3]

Kobe is about to get his 4th ring with no other great player around him. pau is just very good.

[Manute for Ever!]

Not really. Kobe scored 28 PPG on a 57 win team this year. He also led the league in total pts scored. He easily could have led in the league in scoring but only took 20 FGA per game.
Kobe=G.O.A.T

You just got banned writing similar crap, move on with you life, KingD/bigshot/Jacks3

[goldgrill4me]

On more serious note, you can say that MJ is better than Kobe, thats fine with me. But you can't say he's "inarguably" better than him, as player wise they are alikes, and both have some weapon on their game, that seperate them better from each other in those certain things. Some will like Kobe better, and some will like MJ.

LOL........ You make it seem like MJ >>>>Kobe is a 50/50 split. Its like a 95/5 for MJ. Only a moron who is under the age of 20 would have Kobe over Jordan.

[Jacks3]

You just got banned writing similar crap, move on with you life, KingD/bigshot/Jacks3

What did I say? He said Kobe can't do individually great play with team succes. Yet Kobe avg 28 PPG on only 20 FGA per game, and lead in the league in total pts scored.

[Loki]

Not really. Kobe scored 28 PPG on a 57 win team this year. He also led the league in total pts scored. He easily could have led in the league in scoring but only took 20 FGA per game.
Kobe=G.O.A.T

What's his PER and EFF? Yeah, that's what I thought. When you want to be considered among the greatest players of all-time (as Kobe desires and his fans constantly tell us; see your above "GOAT" comment, which is farcical), it's not enough to finish 8th in PER, 5th in EFF, < 20th in Offensive Rating, 4th in Win Shares, and 9th in Win Shares Above Average. You have to dominate statistically across the board.

28 ppg is nice, but it's not the whole picture. Again, Kobe has never blended all-time level production and team success. One can speculate as to why that is, but imo it's because he's not efficient enough (cue cries of "TS%!" from the groopies) and his style of play (lots of long jumpers, somewhat frequent overdribbling etc.) is not conducive to team ball.