C. Paul: "He can't guard me!"

[Glove_20]

You're biased and all you care about is GP/KJ when it comes to comparisons. You value and rate them (KJ really) so much its hilarious. GP is a stud, so we'll leave him out the equation but your love affair with KJ is comedy. But believe what you want.

GOBB, do you just "say" these things? Or can you actually back these things up?


Ask yourself one thing, if KJ isn't that good, then why can't I argue against KJ arguments? And strong KJ arguments from someone like GMAT.


Why is that? Why is that in any debate between KJ vs. ____ that is reasonable, (CP3, AI, Kidd, Nash, all reasonable), you would lose. I've seen plenty of times GMAT's posts driving you away.


Now before you change the subject and say something about me and GMAT, I want to focus you back to the main question. Why can't you ARGUE KJ isn't as good as he is.




To me honestly, if you can't argue something, and just believe it, then it's just in your head and you're in self denial.
It's happened to me before, and I change my opinion (Away from GP plenty of times).





So bottom line. If KJ isn't as good as I say he is, then why can't you argue that?

[Glove_20]

[COLOR=Teal]Factoring in 3PT and FT%, CP3 is more efficient a scorer (at age what 22?) than KJ ever was. Reality.
[/COLOR]

Well first of all nobody took 3 pointers in the late 80s to early 90s. So you can't blame KJ for that. Back in the later parts of the 90s when 3s were starting to be taken, KJ shot over 40% regularly.

2nd of all KJ actually has a higher FT% careerwise than Paul, and got to the line much more often.

Not to mention the fact that KJ's FG% has always been higher than Paul's during KJ's peak.



So don't know where you got that? And to finish it off KJ also had a higher ppg.





What were you saying again? KJ scores more, higher FG%, and higher FT%, and hit a higher % of his 3s when he took them regularly like the rest of the league.

Did you have an argument?

[sbw19]

[COLOR=Gray]You're biased and all you care about is GP/KJ when it comes to comparisons. You value and rate them (KJ really) so much its hilarious. GP is a stud, so we'll leave him out the equation but your love affair with KJ is comedy. But believe what you want.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=Teal]I don't believe he can realize CP3 has had better two first playoff games than both of these guys and definitely has the potential of eclipsing both when all is said and done.[/COLOR]

[Glove_20]

[COLOR=Teal]I don't believe he can realize CP3 has had better two first playoff games than both of these guys and definitely has the potential of eclipsing both when all is said and done.[/COLOR]

I believe in reasonability, objectivity, empirical evidence, and balanced criteria.

If you want to go into a long intelligent debate, maybe then you can take out your bias, see both sides, and choose, and I'm sure you'll see KJ is the choice.

[B-Jax]

I believe in reasonability, objectivity, empirical evidence, and balanced criteria.

If you want to go into a long intelligent debate, maybe then you can take out your bias, see both sides, and choose, and I'm sure you'll see KJ is the choice.

Since this is Chris Paul's first time in the playoffs, there was no way of knowing how he would play. He has played very well so far. Kevin Johnson was a great player and you brought up some good points, but it is far too soon to compare a 22 year old Chris Paul with guys like Gary Payton and Kevin Johnson.

[Glove_20]

Since this is Chris Paul's first time in the playoffs, there was no way of knowing how he would play. He has played very well so far. Kevin Johnson was a great player and you brought up some good points, but it is far too soon to compare a 22 year old Chris Paul with guys like Gary Payton and Kevin Johnson.

Yeah I agree. No doubt CP3 has the potential to pass both players. I'm just saying right now he isn't above either of them.


But there is no doubt CP3 is something special.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

[QUOTE=Glove_20]

2nd of all KJ actually has a higher FT% careerwise than Paul, and got to the line much more often.

Not to mention the fact that KJ's FG% has always been higher than Paul's during KJ's peak.


QUOTE]

Give Paul a few more years, he is only 22. Of course he got to the line more than Paul has.

And his FG% was higher during his peak? So what, CP3 hasn't even hit his yet. Give it time.

[steve]

I believe in reasonability, objectivity, empirical evidence, and balanced criteria.

If you want to go into a long intelligent debate, maybe then you can take out your bias, see both sides, and choose, and I'm sure you'll see KJ is the choice.

If that were true you wouldn't discount like a significantly higher assist to turnover ratio (3.2 to 4.6), less of an impact on the offense as a whole (Johnson contributing to under 40% of the Suns offense that season to Paul contributing to nearly 50% of the Hornets this season), and signficantly more steals (Johnson didn't even get over 100). Plus he wasn't the main focal point of the Suns offense that season either (Tom Chambers was a 2000 point scorer). It was a very good season, but taken in the context of the era that he played in, it wasn't more impressive than Paul's season. He was more turnover prone than Paul and less of the catalyst in the Suns offense.

[Glove_20]

Give Paul a few more years, he is only 22. Of course he got to the line more than Paul has.

And his FG% was higher during his peak? So what, CP3 hasn't even hit his yet. Give it time.

Yes I agree with that. I'm not saying by any view that Paul will never surpass KJ or GP. No way am I saying that.

However I'm just saying right now he isn't at KJ or GP's level.

[Glove_20]

If that were true you wouldn't discount like a significantly higher assist to turnover ratio (3.2 to 4.6), less of an impact on the offense as a whole (Johnson contributing to under 40% of the Suns offense that season to Paul contributing to nearly 50% of the Hornets this season), and signficantly more steals (Johnson didn't even get over 100). Plus he wasn't the main focal point of the Suns offense that season either (Tom Chambers was a 2000 point scorer). It was a very good season, but taken in the context of the era that he played in, it wasn't more impressive than Paul's season. He was more turnover prone than Paul and less of the catalyst in the Suns offense.

At the same time, who was able to run his offense better? Who was able to bring more success to his offense? I mean that's a PG's job too isn't it?

Kevin Johnson brought out the best from his teammate Tom Chambers. Chambers though had some good years in Seattle, had his best years with KJ and the Suns. He even once said in his Ring Ceremony (Unrelated to KJ), that "KJ made me the player I am today"

Comparing the player to their respective offense has a flaw because the Sun's offense was better than the Hornet's offense. And many times it's up to the PG to decide how good their offense will be.


I pointed out another year where KJ got 2.1spg, 22/10, with a 52% FG.
But steals shouldn't be that important in defense, and KJ has been an underrated defender all his career.

[B-Jax]

Yes I agree with that. I'm not saying by any view that Paul will never surpass KJ or GP. No way am I saying that.

However I'm just saying right now he isn't at KJ or GP's level.

He'll have to play in at least two or three playoffs before he can be on Johnson's and Payton's level. These guys were in the playoffs regularly from 1992-1998.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Yes I agree with that. I'm not saying by any view that Paul will never surpass KJ or GP. No way am I saying that.

However I'm just saying right now he isn't at KJ or GP's level.

I understand what you're trying to say, IMO Paul will surpass that level, but it's just too early to even compare, I mean this kid is still only 22.

It's going to be scary seeing him in his prime.

[sbw19]

[COLOR=Gray]Well first of all nobody took 3 pointers in the late 80s to early 90s. So you can't blame KJ for that. Back in the later parts of the 90s when 3s were starting to be taken, KJ shot over 40% regularly.

2nd of all KJ actually has a higher FT% careerwise than Paul, and got to the line much more often.

Not to mention the fact that KJ's FG% has always been higher than Paul's during KJ's peak.



So don't know where you got that? And to finish it off KJ also had a higher ppg.





What were you saying again? KJ scores more, higher FG%, and higher FT%, and hit a higher % of his 3s when he took them regularly like the rest of the league.

Did you have an argument? [/COLOR]

[COLOR=Teal]
Well it's hard not to have an argument when Paul's shooting numbers (FG/3PT/FT) in his third season at the age of 22 are better than all of KJ's seasons except two. And you can't blame Paul for shooting the 3 well above his career 33% average this season while KJ is a 30% career 3pt shooter and for the vast majority of his career shot below 30%.

Paul in his third season averages 21.1ppg (Hornets averaged 100.9ppg) on 48.8FG%/36.93PT%/85.1FT%, 4rpg, 11.6apg (leads league), 2.7spg (leads league) & 2.5tpg.

KJ in his third season averaged 22.5 ppg (Phoenix averaged 110.1ppg) on 49.9FG%/19.53PT%(took 41 3pters)/83.8FT%, 3.6 rpg, 11.4 apg, 1.28 spg & 3.55tpg.

So you can see Paul's numbers this season which is his third are better than KJ's third season at more or less the same age (turns 23 next may) in a slower-paced era, and his performances in his first two playoff games rival not only KJ's best but also those of point guards regarded much higher than him.

And if you think he won't have a better career than KJ based on what he's capable of right now then all you have to do is watch him play ball in the playoffs for the next ten years.[/COLOR]

[ChrisConley]

Glove... I'm missing something. You keep posting season stat comparisons between Paul and Johnson where KJs are equal to or worse than Paul's and saying that shows he's better?

[sbw19]

[COLOR=Gray]I believe in reasonability, objectivity, empirical evidence, and balanced criteria.

If you want to go into a long intelligent debate, maybe then you can take out your bias, see both sides, and choose, and I'm sure you'll see KJ is the choice.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=Teal]You could use some of your own advice, you know.[/COLOR]