Bill Russell: Sam Jones is better then Scottie Pippen?

[abuC]

I remember after Wilt died, they had Russell on NBC @ Halftime during a game and asked him some questions about Wilt, he went on to say Wilt would have averaged 40ppg in the current NBA. Everyone on the panel had this "sure old man" kind of look on their faces, and there was some awkward silence. Russell seems to blurt out things at times.

[RainierBeachPoet]

Bulls:"Russell isnt even better than Pippen"

hmmm

whose opinion carries more weight?

a guy who has won 11 championship rings and has actually seen and played with sam jones

or a guy named bulls who posts at ish

hmmmm

tough decision

[Los Angeles]

No way is Pippen better then Bill Russell, no way Bulls.

[Los Angeles]

You need to understand that players back in the day didn't have nearly as much advanced physical preparation as players do in the last 20 years or so. I mean high tech equipment, protein shakes/bars, personal trainers...c'mon man, Bill Russell was a freak of nature. You can't fault him for playing against weaker players, it's not a coincidence that players today are all more athletic and stronger...Russell dominated a league where every played had the same opportunity to better himself as a player...yeah players in the 60's weren't as big or athletic as players today, but that has to do with which hand they were given.

I mean I could easily say if Bill Russell played in todays league he would be even more freakishly athletic and stronger...thus being an even more dominant force.

[D-Fence]

Sam Jones and John Havlicek were probably the 2 best clutch shooters involved in the first Celtics dynasty. Pippen's record in the clutch seems somewhat more uneven, and Russell doesn't have the fondness for Pippen by having played with him. In game 7 of the 1965 Division Finals, Havlicek saved Russell from potentially being the goat and losing the championship with the steal, as Russell was responsible for turning the ball over on the previous play. On Sam Jones, Russell also said that in the 7th game of a championship series, he'd "take Sam over any player who's ever walked on a court."

Ranking John Havlicek over Scottie Pippen is common. Both were all-around great players--scorers, point forwards, great defenders, leaders.

Sam Jones wasn't quite the ball thief, passer, or as versitile at positions, but he was also a great well-rounded player. Playing his entire career with Russell, he also never had the distinction of being the best player on his team, as Havlicek and Pippen (briefly) did. Like most, I wouldn't rank him above Pippen, either, but I'd probably have a smaller than usual gap between them.

I also recall that Havlicek (I think) told a story about Russell being asked what he thought of the Bulls having achieved their first 3-peat, and he said he didn't think much of it.

Some other Bill Russell comments, He says they wouldn't be able to stop Michael Jordan.

They couldn't stop Jerry West, either. Elgin Baylor scored 61 points in a Finals game against Boston. Chamberlain had spectacular games against them, as did Pettit and others. So, yeah, I think Russell's right on that one.

Here's a quote from Kobe Bryant that I also find interesting:

When I was going through a rough time and understanding that I have to give up some personal things to win, I read something that Bill Russell said. He made a comment about Sam Jones and how he felt Sam could have led the league in scoring and done a lot of things. But he understood that wasn't critical for the team to be successful, so he stepped back and sacrificed to give his team what it needed. That provided me with some comfort. I could relate to that. When people think about me, I just want them to be able to say, 'He won.'

[L.Kizzle]

Sam Jones and John Havlicek were probably the 2 best clutch shooters involved in the first Celtics dynasty. Pippen's record in the clutch seems somewhat more uneven, and Russell doesn't have the fondness for Pippen by having played with him. In game 7 of the 1965 Division Finals, Havlicek saved Russell from potentially being the goat and losing the championship with the steal, as Russell was responsible for turning the ball over on the previous play. On Sam Jones, Russell also said that in the 7th game of a championship series, he'd "take Sam over any player who's ever walked on a court."

Ranking John Havlicek over Scottie Pippen is common. Both were all-around great players--scorers, point forwards, great defenders, leaders.

Sam Jones wasn't quite the ball thief, passer, or as versitile at positions, but he was also a great well-rounded player. Playing his entire career with Russell, he also never had the distinction of being the best player on his team, as Havlicek and Pippen (briefly) did. Like most, I wouldn't rank him above Pippen, either, but I'd probably have a smaller than usual gap between them.

I also recall that Havlicek (I think) told a story about Russell being asked what he thought of the Bulls having achieved their first 3-peat, and he said he didn't think much of it.


They couldn't stop Jerry West, either. Elgin Baylor scored 61 points in a Finals game against Boston. Chamberlain had spectacular games against them, as did Pettit and others. So, yeah, I think Russell's right on that one.

Here's a quote from Kobe Bryant that I also find interesting:

His teammate (Russell) wasn't the one to think highly of Sam Jones. After Jones hit a game wing jumper in game 7 of the 1971 playoffs, Wilt said he was the Celts best player.

In the seventh-game showdown, with the score tied at 107 and two seconds left, Jones hit a jump shot over the outstretched arms of Chamberlain to seal the win. After the game Chamberlain hailed Jones as the Celtics' best player. In the NBA Finals against the Los Angeles Lakers, Jones again came through, scoring five of the Celtics' 10 overtime points in Game 7 to propel Boston to a fourth straight NBA crown.

[bdreason]

Pippen greater than Russell?


You must be joking.


Without Jordan, Pippen wouldn't have won anything. Trying to diminish Russell's achievements because of who he played with is laughable.

[KULLS]

Why isn't this little kid banned yet?

[haji_d_robertas]

Why isn't this little kid banned yet?

Which little kid?

[D-Fence]

After Jones hit a game wing jumper in game 7 of the 1971 playoffs, Wilt said he was the Celts best player.

Yeah. Russell and Auerbach have told a few good stories on the games within the games Jones would play with Chamberlain. I recall one ended with Jones defending himself from Chamberlain with a chair.

And this one is from Russell's book Second Wind:

He'd hustle people out on the court all night and have a high time doing it. He always had something going with Wilt, for instance. Against Philadelphia, he'd dribble the ball around the top of the key toward the corner, and I'd set a good pick against the man guarding him. When that happened, Wilt was supposed to pick Sam up. Sam would stop about eighteen feet out, and in a falsetto voice would call, "You better come on out here, Wilt Chamberlain!" Only Sam could sound that sassy, and he always added Wilt's last name, like a mother scolding her child. Wilt would be near the basket, about a step and a half from blocking Sam's shot, but in the next instant Sam would yell, "Too late!" as he let fly a bank shot--which always went in. He'd do it over and over. Sometimes he'd yell two or three times before shooting, if he were open long enough. Finally Wilt would be irritated enough to come out after him, and the instant Wilt lunged to block the shot, Sam would flip the ball to me and I'd dunk it. Which also irritated Wilt, because he hated to see me dunk.

Anyhow, yeah, they all say Sam was clutch.

[RainierBeachPoet]

from Russell's book Second Wind:


Quote:
He'd hustle people out on the court all night and have a high time doing it. He always had something going with Wilt, for instance. Against Philadelphia, he'd dribble the ball around the top of the key toward the corner, and I'd set a good pick against the man guarding him. When that happened, Wilt was supposed to pick Sam up. Sam would stop about eighteen feet out, and in a falsetto voice would call, "You better come on out here, Wilt Chamberlain!" Only Sam could sound that sassy, and he always added Wilt's last name, like a mother scolding her child. Wilt would be near the basket, about a step and a half from blocking Sam's shot, but in the next instant Sam would yell, "Too late!" as he let fly a bank shot--which always went in. He'd do it over and over. Sometimes he'd yell two or three times before shooting, if he were open long enough. Finally Wilt would be irritated enough to come out after him, and the instant Wilt lunged to block the shot, Sam would flip the ball to me and I'd dunk it. Which also irritated Wilt, because he hated to see me dunk.


great anecdote

i keep thinking of a michael jackson voice...

[guy]

You need to understand that players back in the day didn't have nearly as much advanced physical preparation as players do in the last 20 years or so. I mean high tech equipment, protein shakes/bars, personal trainers...c'mon man, Bill Russell was a freak of nature. You can't fault him for playing against weaker players, it's not a coincidence that players today are all more athletic and stronger...Russell dominated a league where every played had the same opportunity to better himself as a player...yeah players in the 60's weren't as big or athletic as players today, but that has to do with which hand they were given.

I mean I could easily say if Bill Russell played in todays league he would be even more freakishly athletic and stronger...thus being an even more dominant force.

This is all true. Everyone had an even playing field but the 60s were still alot easier then the 90s and 00s, because there is still way more competition, the playoffs are much different, and free agency. There's more competition cause their has been about 27-30 teams in the past 20 years, compared to 8-9 in the 60s. Back then a team depending on their record, only had to play a max of 2 or 3 playoff series to possibly win a title. And free agency has made it to so rosters are changing alot faster now then in the 60s. With that said, if the 60s Celtics were brought up in the 90s or 00s, and they were all more athletic, stronger, and better skilled cause of the times, they still wouldn't have won nearly as much, cause their would probably be 2 or 3 teams just as good as them, and the team wouldn't have stayed together for as long. And like people have said Bill Russell wouldn't be looked at as that much better then a guy like Dennis Rodman i.e. a great defender and rebounder that doesn't score much, and only cares about winning.

I would still put Bill Russell in my top 15, because he was one of the greatest defenders, rebounders, and winners and I don't think that would change much if he played in the 90s-00s. Its still hard to tell how his success would change, but his basketball IQ is through the roof and he had a huge impact so I wouldn't discredit him.

[allball]

^Poseidon= BULLS.

it's so obvious it's pathetic.

[johndeeregreen]

I wonder how many people have seen even one full game tape of Jones.

[dejordan]

I wonder how many people have seen even one full game tape of Jones.

i was thinking the same thing. older guys i talk to about the game all basically said that jones was the one they were afraid of late in games (all wilt fans in my fam) and that he had a very unorthadox shot that was really hard to block. i don't know if he was better than scottie, but bill russell tends to be pretty honest in his estimation of players. that doesn't make him right though.