Peak Harden vs. Current Luka

[Im Still Ballin]

I'm enjoying watching them play because they have a lot of similarities: high usage, "heliocentric" elite scorers, passers, and playmakers. Both heavily utilize step-back threes, like to slow down the PnR and ride a guy on their hip, and throw great lob passes to roll men.

Constructing a team around them looks very similar. I suppose you can say that for most perimeter shot creators.

The obvious physical differences to me are:

- Harden had better acceleration and slightly better deceleration
- Luka is bigger and stronger
- Luka has better fluidity, lateral movement, and pivoting

Harden's better change of pace allowed him to be shiftier, draw more fouls, and get downhill easier. Luka's superior change of direction, lateral movement, and footwork give him a deeper bag with more counters. Combined with his greater size and strength, Doncic's in-between game (mid-range, post-up) is much more developed.

I think it comes down to whether you value Harden's foul pressure or Luka's more diverse offensive game. There are other lesser things like the fact Luka gives up more technical fouls because he complains. Or that Peak Harden is more durable and more likely to be in shape.

The one argument for Harden was his superior regular season team performance and that MVP. But now having seen how Dallas has played with actual centers, it lends credence to the idea that the difference in team performance is down to personnel/roster construction. Not surprisingly, Luka's much-maligned on/off was great this year.

In fact, Luka's +9.4 on/off is higher than any of Harden's. Not that on/off means much in isolation. Context obviously matters.

But the real decider for me and I imagine for those who pick Doncic is playoff play. Luka's superior second-level (mid-range/post-up) game translates to better scoring and playmaking in the postseason and situationally - in the clutch, broken plays, taking advantage of switches, cross matches, and mismatches from certain lineups.

[Im Still Ballin]

Peak Harden's playoff performances aren't as bad as people make them out to be. They just weren't up to the standards of his regular seasons for the most part.

Harden 2017-2020 Playoffs:

- 51 games
- 37.3 minutes per game
- 29.5 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 7.3 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.7 bpg, 4.3 topg
- 31.5% 3pt, 53.4% 2pt, 50.4% eFG, 86.4% FT, 61.8% TS (110.7 TS+)

Luka 2020-2024 Playoffs:

- 30 games
- 37.9 minutes per game
- 32.5 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 7.8 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 4.3 topg
- 36.4% 3pt, 54.1% 2pt, 54.3% eFG, 70.1% FT, 57.8% TS (101.3 TS+)

Not the best comparison because it's Harden age 27-30 vs. Luka age 20-24. But it's interesting to look at nonetheless. Dallas beating Phoenix in 2022 was a greater scalp than anything from Houston in those years. But you still have to consider the competitive series versus GSW in '18 and '19.

[Jasper]

I'm enjoying watching them play because they have a lot of similarities: high usage, "heliocentric" elite scorers, passers, and playmakers. Both heavily utilize step-back threes, like to slow down the PnR and ride a guy on their hip, and throw great lob passes to roll men.

Constructing a team around them looks very similar. I suppose you can say that for most perimeter shot creators.

The obvious physical differences to me are:

- Harden had better acceleration and slightly better deceleration
- Luka is bigger and stronger
- Luka has better fluidity, lateral movement, and pivoting

Harden's better change of pace allowed him to be shiftier, draw more fouls, and get downhill easier. Luka's superior change of direction, lateral movement, and footwork give him a deeper bag with more counters. Combined with his greater size and strength, Doncic's in-between game (mid-range, post-up) is much more developed.

I think it comes down to whether you value Harden's foul pressure or Luka's more diverse offensive game. There are other lesser things like the fact Luka gives up more technical fouls because he complains. Or that Peak Harden is more durable and more likely to be in shape.

The one argument for Harden was his superior regular season team performance and that MVP. But now having seen how Dallas has played with actual centers, it lends credence to the idea that the difference in team performance is down to personnel/roster construction. Not surprisingly, Luka's much-maligned on/off was great this year.

In fact, Luka's +9.4 on/off is higher than any of Harden's. Not that on/off means much in isolation. Context obviously matters.

But the real decider for me and I imagine for those who pick Doncic is playoff play. Luka's superior second-level (mid-range/post-up) game translates to better scoring and playmaking in the postseason and situationally - in the clutch, broken plays, taking advantage of switches, cross matches, and mismatches from certain lineups.

excuse me dude ,,, but Harden can only dream he could play like Luka.
/

[FKAri]

Luka because his production isn't as hampered by strong defense. He's also a better passer. And whether you think the whole choking thing is overblown or not the fact is that Luka has been better in high pressure moments in his career.

Harden was a bit better at torching bad defense though. He was also better at punishing bigs on the perimeter. Also better at up tempo, open court play.

Defensively, Harden is definitely better than Luka but Harden couldn't score and defend at a high level at the same time so this is tough to evaluate.

[SouBeachTalents]

Bro, we just witnessed peak Harden, you're not about to rewrite recent history and convince anybody Harden wasn't an extremely disappointing playoff performer He was able to put up some big numbers in the first round or the opening games of the series, but like clockwork, the further along his team went in the playoffs, or the longer a series went on for, the worse he would play.

15 years into his career and you can't point to a single notable performance he's had in a pivotal playoff game. On the contrary, I could point to a dozen not just bad, but atrocious outings he's had in big spots.

To try to compare that to Luka, who's been mostly brilliant in in the playoffs, just comes across as disingenuous.

[Im Still Ballin]

excuse me dude ,,, but Harden can only dream he could play like Luka.
/

I don't think it's a disrespectful comparison. They're both all-time great talents with lots of similarities.

[Im Still Ballin]

Peak Harden's playoff performances aren't as bad as people make them out to be. They just weren't up to the standards of his regular seasons for the most part.

Harden 2017-2020 Playoffs:

- 51 games
- 37.3 minutes per game
- 29.5 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 7.3 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.7 bpg, 4.3 topg
- 31.5% 3pt, 53.4% 2pt, 50.4% eFG, 86.4% FT, 61.8% TS (110.7 TS+)

Luka 2020-2024 Playoffs:

- 30 games
- 37.9 minutes per game
- 32.5 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 7.8 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 4.3 topg
- 36.4% 3pt, 54.1% 2pt, 54.3% eFG, 70.1% FT, 57.8% TS (101.3 TS+)

Not the best comparison because it's Harden age 27-30 vs. Luka age 20-24. But it's interesting to look at nonetheless. Dallas beating Phoenix in 2022 was a greater scalp than anything from Houston in those years. But you still have to consider the competitive series versus GSW in '18 and '19.

Just want to update the numbers; I made an error with Harden's TS%. He's at 57.8% TS from 2017-2020 - exactly the same as Luka right now.

Harden 2017-2020 Playoffs:

- 51 games
- 37.3 minutes per game
- 29.5 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 7.3 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.7 bpg, 4.3 topg
- 31.5% 3pt, 53.4% 2pt, 50.4% eFG, 86.4% FT, 57.8% TS (103.5 TS+)

Luka 2020-2024 Playoffs:

- 30 games
- 37.9 minutes per game
- 32.5 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 7.8 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 4.3 topg
- 36.4% 3pt, 54.1% 2pt, 54.3% eFG, 70.1% FT, 57.8% TS (101.3 TS+)

[dankok8]

Good thread. There are definitely lots of similarities between their styles.

I would lean towards Luka just because he's been better in big playoff moments. I think being taller allows him to get off more shots plus he's less reliant on the refs to call fouls which they tend to do less in the playoffs anyway.

[Im Still Ballin]

Good thread. There are definitely lots of similarities between their styles.

I would lean towards Luka just because he's been better in big playoff moments. I think being taller allows him to get off more shots plus he's less reliant on the refs to call fouls which they tend to do less in the playoffs anyway.

Harden's free-throw rate dropped roughly 9% or so from regular season to playoffs in the sampled years above. From 51% to like 42%. I'm sure some of that is the officiating and some of it is the stronger opposition/defenses.

[jayfan]

Bro, we just witnessed peak Harden, you're not about to rewrite recent history and convince anybody Harden wasn't an extremely disappointing playoff performer He was able to put up some big numbers in the first round or the opening games of the series, but like clockwork, the further along his team went in the playoffs, or the longer a series went on for, the worse he would play.

15 years into his career and you can't point to a single notable performance he's had in a pivotal playoff game. On the contrary, I could point to a dozen not just bad, but atrocious outings he's had in big spots.

This.


.

[FultzNationRISE]

The answer to this has been given many times tbh.

In the regular season it’s close to a toss up, maybe an edge to Luka for doing the same things at a bigger size. But take whichever you want.

In the post season theres no comparison. When it comes to cold blooded domination it’s literally one of the best vs one of the worst (among guys considered elite).

[tpols]

Luka seems to step up more when it counts but they both take a lot of crazy ass shots and dribble the air out the ball. Difference is so far Luka gets better as the heat gets hotter and pressure increases. Harden is a front runner.

[BarberSchool]

Luka is the closest thing to Harden’s peak since Harden’s peak.
A taller/heavier/slower Harden.

*Mutual Cons*
- Too many bad shots
- Excessive dribbling
- Excessive usage
- Frequent no-effort defense
- Overall Laziness
- High bodyfat (deadweight) for NBA players.

*Downgrades*
-Much Slower overall
-Brings ball up even slower
-Slower as ball handler leading the fast break
-even slower in transition defense
-slower downhill speed in PNR yields less layups/fouls
-Consistently worse fitness level
-Cries to refs more in a childish way
-Even worse body language

*Upgrades*
+ Much more clutch already
+ Less dependant on flopping/free-throws
+ PF-level pivots/footwork/paint-stability
+ Peja’s high release
+ Bird’s Clutch gene.

+ More/better full-court Outlet transition passing to finishers. Faster scores than any dribble-led fast break/conserve more energy.

+More accurate&frequent cross-court bullet passing into shooter’s pockets.

+More accurate&frequent no-look-passes from penetration in half court, to get his teammates an extra half second of time/space while the defense catches up to where the ball went (and not where Luka was staring)

+ Extra height/strength/weight allows better passing OVER doubles, more stability thru physical paint traffic and physical doubles.

+ Slower downhill speed allows for more controlled/composed braking, and multi-directional slow steps / slow-euro, which allows for more versatile-counters/stable-pivots/spins, and more TIME to READ scrambling/rotating defenses, and ADAPT to choose to score or pass, after the defense has shown their hand, during those gathers/final-steps.

[FKAri]

Luka is the closest thing to Harden’s peak since Harden’s peak.
A taller/heavier/slower Harden.

*Mutual Cons*
- Too many bad shots
- Excessive dribbling
- Excessive usage
- Frequent no-effort defense
- Overall Laziness
- High bodyfat (deadweight) for NBA players.

*Downgrades*
-Much Slower overall
-Brings ball up even slower
-Slower as ball handler leading the fast break
-even slower in transition defense
-slower downhill speed in PNR yields less layups/fouls
-Consistently worse fitness level
-Cries to refs more in a childish way
-Even worse body language

*Upgrades*
+ Much more clutch already
+ Less dependant on flopping/free-throws
+ PF-level pivots/footwork/paint-stability
+ Peja’s high release
+ Bird’s Clutch gene.

+ More/better full-court Outlet transition passing to finishers. Faster scores than any dribble-led fast break/conserve more energy.

+More accurate&frequent cross-court bullet passing into shooter’s pockets.

+More accurate&frequent no-look-passes from penetration in half court, to get his teammates an extra half second of time/space while the defense catches up to where the ball went (and not where Luka was staring)

+ Extra height/strength/weight allows better passing OVER doubles, more stability thru physical paint traffic and physical doubles.

+ Slower downhill speed allows for more controlled/composed braking, and multi-directional slow steps / slow-euro, which allows for more versatile-counters/stable-pivots/spins, and more TIME to READ scrambling/rotating defenses, and ADAPT to choose to score or pass, after the defense has shown their hand, during those gathers/final-steps.

Great breakdown.

[ImKobe]

Luka's game is far more versatile and he's way more effective inside the arc and a better player off-ball. Less foul baiting and is actually able to finish through contact.