Phil inherited a championship team in 1989

[3ba11]

The 89' Bulls nearly made the Finals and were the only team that won any games against the Pistons during that run - the Pistons were 11-0 against everyone but 4-2 against the Bulls and most people don't realize that Pippen didn't play in Game 6 of that series, just like he missed Game 7 the following year in 1990 - he "migrained" 2 years in a row!

In addition to missing Game 6.. Pippen had 7 points in Game 5 and averaged 9.7 on 40% for the series..

Even though the Bulls were a low seed and 1-man team in 89', they were still a championship team because of how well MJ was playing - he led the Bulls to historic upset over the #1 SRS Cavs who had 3 all-stars plus Ron Harper (20/5/5).. Then he upset Ewing's Knicks.. Of course 10 points from pippen in Games 5 and 6 easily wins the ECF vs Pistons, while the Finals would be an easy matchup vs the injured Lakers (no Magic, Worthy or Scott).

So why do people credit Phil with anything other than good timing? He was a 1st time nobody coach in 90/91, not a goat coach.. He needed to win 72 games to get coach of the year with MJ.

[Wardell Curry]

I hear your passion for Michael Jordan, and it's undeniable that he's one of the greatest to ever play the game. However, it's important to recognize that basketball is a team sport, and success doesn't come solely from one player's brilliance.

You mentioned the 1989 Bulls and their near run to the Finals, highlighting Jordan's exceptional performance. But let's not forget the context. Scottie Pippen's absence in crucial games, like Game 6 against the Pistons, had a significant impact. Pippen's versatility and defensive prowess were crucial elements of the Bulls' success.

Regarding coaching, while Phil Jackson might have had good timing, his coaching strategies and ability to manage egos were integral to the team's success. Winning against formidable opponents like the Pistons and the Cavaliers required more than just individual brilliance; it demanded cohesive teamwork and effective coaching.

Let's not overlook the quality of the opponents faced during those playoff runs. Beating teams like the Pistons and the Cavs wasn't just about Jordan's heroics; it was a testament to the team's collective effort and strategic planning.

In essence, while Jordan's greatness is undeniable, it's essential to recognize the contributions of his teammates and coach, as well as the challenges they faced along the way. Basketball success is a team effort, not just the result of one player's brilliance.

[SouBeachTalents]

Speaking of that ECF, Jordan in those last 3 games

Game 4: Scores 23 points on 5/15, gets outplayed by Pippen

Game 5: The GOAT scorer takes 8 shots in what was at the time the biggest game of his career, scores just 18 points

Game 6: Commits 8 turnovers and goes a ghastly 5/12 from the line

So after averaging 33 ppg on 61%TS during the regular season, after taking a 2-1 lead he proceeds to average just 24 ppg on 55%TS over those final 3 games, getting outplayed and outscored by Isiah during that timeframe, all in games that were decided by single digits.

So if Jordan just plays up to his standards, or hell, even slightly below, Chicago wins the series and probably wins the title. Definitely one of the more underrated chokes, like 1995. He also had a similar drop off in play against the Pistons the year before. So it looks like Phil should get credited for helping turn around a frequently underachieving ballhog into a 6x champion.

[Carbine]

They needed the structure of the triangle with Phil. It suited their two main stars perfectly because it allowed Pippen to facilitate and handle the ball while it allowed Jordan to score 30-35 every night without much dribble time.

[3ba11]

Speaking of that ECF, Jordan in those last 3 games

Game 4: Scores 23 points on 5/15, gets outplayed by Pippen

Game 5: The GOAT scorer takes 8 shots in what was at the time the biggest game of his career, scores just 18 points

Game 6: Commits 8 turnovers and goes a ghastly 5/12 from the line

So after averaging 33 ppg on 61%TS during the regular season, after taking a 2-1 lead he proceeds to average just 24 ppg on 55%TS over those final 3 games, getting outplayed and outscored by Isiah during that timeframe, all in games that were decided by single digits.

the difference is that we're talking about an 07' Cavs vs Spurs situation, or even the 08' Cavs vs Celtics situation where Jordan's team was a massive underdog against champs and it yielded weaker performance just like Lebron in those series..

This contrasts with the 2010 Cavs being league favorites for the 2nd year running against the washed up Celtics (like the 14' Heat, except worse).

Jordan was in his 4th healthy season in 89', which coincides with Lebron in 07', while Lebron was in his 7th season in 2010 and reached league favorite status by that time similar to other organic teams like Curry's, Jokic's, Giannis' or MJ's..

People forget that Garnett was a Bill Russell-type player pre-injury in some people eyes - he was the prize in the "big 3" formation - a Tim Duncan-level player.. But he became Horace Grant post-injury, so a cast of 34-year old Allen and Horace isn't nearly enough help for someone like Pierce.. That's why they barely won 50 and needed a classic choke-job from Lebron to make the 2010 Finals as a big underdog.. This was labeled as a "choke" by Lebron because losing as a big favorite is one of the things that defines choking - Jordan didn't have this label in 89' because it was an underdog situation like the 07' or 08' Cavs.

Further confirmation came when Lebron finally got past the Celtics in 2011 - it was Wade that carried the Heat for that series and playoff run while Lebron was 2nd option.. That's like Bird coming along and leading the Bulls in scoring & assists when he finally beat the Pistons in 91'... Absurd but it's a fake debate so these are the kinds of gems that abound.

So if Jordan just plays up to his standards

If MJ gets the same help Lebron had in the 07' Finals, he easily beats the Pistons in 89'.... Just 10 points from Pippen in the last 2 games would've won the series.. Imagine if Kyrie missed Game 7 of the 16' Finals - do you think they win?.. that's what Pippen did in 89' and 90' - he missed the last game of each series and averaged 9.7 on 40% for the entire 89' ECF... that's less than what Lebron had in 07', where the Cavs had the #3 defense even though Lebron wasn't an all-defender until 09'.

[RachlNicholsazz]

OP inherited Aspergers

[SouBeachTalents]

the difference is that we're talking about an 07' Cavs vs Spurs situation, or even the 08' Cavs vs Celtics situation where Jordan's team was a massive underdog against champs and it yielded weaker performance just like Lebron in those series..

This contrasts with the 2010 Cavs being league favorites for the 2nd year running against the washed up Celtics (like the 14' Heat, except worse).

Jordan was in his 4th healthy season in 89', which coincides with Lebron in 07', while Lebron was in his 7th season in 2010 and reached league favorite status by that time similar to other organic teams like Curry's, Jokic's, Giannis' or MJ's..

People forget that Garnett was a Bill Russell-type player pre-injury in some people eyes - he was the prize in the "big 3" formation - a Tim Duncan-level player.. But he became Horace Grant post-injury, so a cast of 34-year old Allen and Horace isn't nearly enough help for someone like Pierce.. That's why they barely won 50 and needed a classic choke-job from Lebron to make the 2010 Finals as a big underdog.. This was labeled as a "choke" by Lebron because losing as a big favorite is one of the things that defines choking - Jordan didn't have this label in 89' because it was an underdog situation like the 07' or 08' Cavs.

Further confirmation came when Lebron finally got past the Celtics in 2011 - it was Wade that carried the Heat for that series and playoff run while Lebron was 2nd option.. That's like Bird coming along and leading the Bulls in scoring & assists when he finally beat the Pistons in 91'... Absurd but it's a fake debate so these are the kinds of gems that abound.







If MJ gets the same help Lebron had in the 07' Finals, he easily beats the Pistons in 89'.... Just 10 points from Pippen in the last 2 games would've won the series.. Imagine if Kyrie missed Game 7 of the 16' Finals - do you think they win?.. that's what Pippen did in 89' and 90' - he missed the last game of each series and averaged 9.7 on 40% for the entire 89' ECF... that's less than what Lebron had in 07', where the Cavs had the #3 defense even though Lebron wasn't an all-defender until 09'.

1-9

OP inherited Aspergers

This.

[Duffy Pratt]

Were the Sacramento Kings ever a championship team?

[3ba11]

1-9

I thought this was a pretty good answer to your question

we're talking about an 07' Cavs vs Spurs situation, or even the 08' Cavs vs Celtics situation where Jordan's team was a massive underdog against champs and it yielded weaker performance just like Lebron in those series..

This contrasts with the 2010 Cavs being league favorites for the 2nd year running against the washed up Celtics (like the 14' Heat, except worse).

[Wardell Curry]

the difference is that we're talking about an 07' Cavs vs Spurs situation, or even the 08' Cavs vs Celtics situation where Jordan's team was a massive underdog against champs and it yielded weaker performance just like Lebron in those series..

This contrasts with the 2010 Cavs being league favorites for the 2nd year running against the washed up Celtics (like the 14' Heat, except worse).

Jordan was in his 4th healthy season in 89', which coincides with Lebron in 07', while Lebron was in his 7th season in 2010 and reached league favorite status by that time similar to other organic teams like Curry's, Jokic's, Giannis' or MJ's..

People forget that Garnett was a Bill Russell-type player pre-injury in some people eyes - he was the prize in the "big 3" formation - a Tim Duncan-level player.. But he became Horace Grant post-injury, so a cast of 34-year old Allen and Horace isn't nearly enough help for someone like Pierce.. That's why they barely won 50 and needed a classic choke-job from Lebron to make the 2010 Finals as a big underdog.. This was labeled as a "choke" by Lebron because losing as a big favorite is one of the things that defines choking - Jordan didn't have this label in 89' because it was an underdog situation like the 07' or 08' Cavs.

Further confirmation came when Lebron finally got past the Celtics in 2011 - it was Wade that carried the Heat for that series and playoff run while Lebron was 2nd option.. That's like Bird coming along and leading the Bulls in scoring & assists when he finally beat the Pistons in 91'... Absurd but it's a fake debate so these are the kinds of gems that abound.

I appreciate your perspective, but let's unpack this a bit further.

Comparing LeBron's situations with the Cavs to Jordan's with the Bulls is an interesting angle. However, it's essential to consider the context surrounding each scenario.

You mentioned the 2007 Cavs and the 2008 Cavs, likening them to underdog situations similar to Jordan's in 1989. While it's true that both LeBron and Jordan faced tough opponents during those playoff runs, it's worth noting that LeBron reached league favorite status by 2010, as you mentioned. This indicates a shift in expectations and circumstances.

Regarding the 2010 Cavs versus the Celtics, it's true that the Celtics were considered underdogs due to their aging roster. However, labeling LeBron's performance in that series as a "choke" might be a bit simplistic. Basketball is a team sport, and success or failure often hinges on various factors beyond one player's performance.

When discussing LeBron's eventual success against the Celtics in 2011, it's important to acknowledge the contributions of his teammates, particularly Dwyane Wade. Basketball is a team game, and Wade's performance during that playoff run shouldn't be overlooked.

In the end, comparing eras and different players' career trajectories can be complex. While there are similarities between LeBron's and Jordan's playoff experiences, each situation has its nuances and factors to consider. It's essential to appreciate the greatness of both players in their own right without diminishing one's achievements to elevate the other.

If MJ gets the same help Lebron had in the 07' Finals, he easily beats the Pistons in 89'.... Just 10 points from Pippen in the last 2 games would've won the series.. Imagine if Kyrie missed Game 7 of the 16' Finals - do you think they win?.. that's what Pippen did in 89' and 90' - he missed the last game of each series and averaged 9.7 on 40% for the entire 89' ECF... that's less than what Lebron had in 07', where the Cavs had the #3 defense even though Lebron wasn't an all-defender until 09'.

I understand your point about the impact of Scottie Pippen's absence in crucial games during the 1989 and 1990 playoffs. It's true that having a key player like Pippen available could have potentially changed the outcomes of those series.

Comparing Pippen's situation to hypothetical scenarios involving other players, like Kyrie Irving missing Game 7 of the 2016 Finals, helps illustrate the importance of having all key players available in high-stakes games. Indeed, the absence of a key player can significantly affect a team's performance, as we've seen in various instances throughout NBA history.

Regarding LeBron's performance in the 2007 Finals versus Pippen's performance in the 1989 Eastern Conference Finals, it's worth noting the different dynamics at play. While Pippen's numbers might not have been as strong as LeBron's in 2007, basketball is a team sport, and individual statistics don't always tell the full story. Additionally, the level of competition and defensive strategies employed by opposing teams can also impact a player's performance.

Overall, your point highlights the importance of having a complete roster and the impact of key players' availability in crucial moments. It's a reminder of the unpredictable nature of sports and how small variables can sometimes make a significant difference in the outcome of games and series.

[sdot_thadon]

Speaking of that ECF, Jordan in those last 3 games

Game 4: Scores 23 points on 5/15, gets outplayed by Pippen

Game 5: The GOAT scorer takes 8 shots in what was at the time the biggest game of his career, scores just 18 points

Game 6: Commits 8 turnovers and goes a ghastly 5/12 from the line

So after averaging 33 ppg on 61%TS during the regular season, after taking a 2-1 lead he proceeds to average just 24 ppg on 55%TS over those final 3 games, getting outplayed and outscored by Isiah during that timeframe, all in games that were decided by single digits.

So if Jordan just plays up to his standards, or hell, even slightly below, Chicago wins the series and probably wins the title. Definitely one of the more underrated chokes, like 1995. He also had a similar drop off in play against the Pistons the year before. So it looks like Phil should get credited for helping turn around a frequently underachieving ballhog into a 6x champion.

Ouch.