mediocre but versatile, or simply the best?

[Manny98]

There's nothing mediocre about LeBrons game he's a jack of all trades master of everything

[FKAri]

Most of what you said is vastly overstated and the results confirm that - Lebron's teams usually have underwhelming defenses, records, and results compared to the expectation.

Furthermore, Shawn Marion or Draymond or even Vanderbilt are more versatile than MJ on defense but none are considered on Jordan or Duncan's level defensively because Jordan/Duncan played great defense, despite being less versatile.

Finally, Lebron has horrible leadership defensively and doesn't elevate teammates to play great defense like Jordan did... teammates push HIM into the right defensive assignments like Kuzma did - this was a microcosm of Lebron's lack of focus, determination and IQ on defense compared to arguably the GOAT defender (MJ).

While it's understandable to have criticisms of LeBron James's defensive impact and leadership compared to players like Michael Jordan and Tim Duncan, it's important to approach these assertions with a nuanced perspective. First, attributing LeBron's team's underwhelming defensive performances solely to him overlooks the complexity of team dynamics and defensive strategies. Basketball is a team sport, and defensive success often relies on collective effort and communication.

LeBron may not always be the most vocal or demonstrative leader on defense but his basketball IQ and ability to read the game contribute to his team's defensive schemes. Additionally, while players like Shawn Marion, Draymond Green, or Vanderbilt may possess greater defensive versatility than Jordan, it's essential to recognize that versatility is just one aspect of defensive excellence. Jordan and Duncan's defensive greatness extended beyond versatility; they were also known for their defensive instincts, positioning, and ability to make game-changing plays in crucial moments.

Finally, criticizing LeBron's leadership defensively overlooks instances where he has elevated his teammates' defensive performances, such as his time with the Miami Heat or the Cleveland Cavaliers. While LeBron may not always be the primary motivator on defense, his presence and example can inspire his teammates to elevate their defensive efforts. In conclusion, while LeBron James may not match the defensive legacies of players like Michael Jordan or Tim Duncan, it's essential to acknowledge his contributions to team defense and recognize the multifaceted factors that influence defensive success in basketball.

[3ba11]

peak Lebron could shut down elite scorers better than most.

2011 ECF

DERRICK ROSE....... 120 total shot attempts.... 16 defended by Lebron (13%)

lmao

Lebron barely guarded Rose, which doesn't compare to Jordan being the primary defender for the entire series on Magic, Drexler and Miller, or full games on Isiah or Payton, while holding them to poor shooting and below their normal PPG.

Furthermore, Bosh and Wade averaged 24 and 19 in that series respectively, so Lebron had great energy because he didn't have to carry the scoring load (defeat max defensive attention) like MJ always did.. It's remarkable that MJ played the best defense despite facing max defensive attention on offense (carrying scoring load), whereas Lebron was relatively carried on offense and barely guarded Rose... It's night and day.

Ultimately, guys like MJ or Duncan are better than lebron defensively because they play better defense, despite being less versatile... this is a repeated theme - Lebron is "versatile" at basketball but Jordan is the best at it.

[AussieSteve]

2011 ECF

DERRICK ROSE....... 120 total shot attempts.... 16 defended by Lebron (13%)

lmao

Lebron barely guarded Rose, which doesn't compare to Jordan being the primary defender for the entire series on Magic, Drexler and Miller, or full games on Isiah or Payton, while holding them to poor shooting and below their normal PPG.

Furthermore, Bosh and Wade averaged 24 and 19 in that series respectively, so Lebron had great energy because he didn't have to carry the scoring load (defeat max defensive attention) like MJ always did.. It's remarkable that MJ played the best defense despite facing max defensive attention on offense (carrying scoring load), whereas Lebron was relatively carried on offense and barely guarded Rose... It's night and day.

Ultimately, guys like MJ or Duncan are better than lebron defensively because they play better defense, despite being less versatile... this is a repeated theme - Lebron is "versatile" at basketball but Jordan is the best at it.

When someone has the most points, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals of any player from either team in a finals series, do you think that they are carrying a smaller or larger load than someone who only leads the series in points?

[Manny98]

MJ isn't even the GOAT scorer

KD, Luka,Curry and LeBron have all been able to match MJs volume yet on way higher efficiency

[3ba11]

MJ isn't even the GOAT scorer

KD, Luka,Curry and LeBron have all been able to match MJs volume yet on way higher efficiency

bolded above is pure nonsense and couldn't be further from the truth.. stop posting

Jordan averaged 25.1 shots per game for his playoff career compared to 20.6 for Lebron, and MJ is the only player in history to win titles while using the most possessions in the league (usage leader).

Furthermore, Lebron never had to carry the scoring load in the Finals (defeat max defensive attention) and he rarely had to carry the scoring load on his title runs, so his shooting efficiency is inflated compared to Jordan, who always defeated max defensive attention (carried scoring load).. However, shooting efficiency falls under the umbrella of efficiency per possession (ortg), where Jordan's is higher due to far lower turnovers.

[3ba11]

When someone has the most points, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals of any player from either team in a finals series, do you think that they are carrying a smaller or larger load than someone who only leads the series in points?

GOAT defense + 41 ppg is a bigger load, while defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load on championship level)... you're citing 1 series as if many guys haven't had goat-level one-offs.

Lebron led categories by 0.1, while MJ might trail a category by 0.1 - who cares - statistical anomalies - Lebron never CARRIED important categories like carrying the scoring load, which means defeating max defensive attention.. By virtue of having an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention, Lebron didn't have to defeat max defensive attention and therefore had an easy load compared to MJ.

Btw, imagine how much energy it takes to shoot 54% while playing the best defense in the league (DPOY) and getting 35/6/6 on offense - and still shoot 54% - this requires infinite energy - MJ had the most energy of any player ever.

[sdot_thadon]

When someone has the most points, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals of any player from either team in a finals series, do you think that they are carrying a smaller or larger load than someone who only leads the series in points?

He gonna duck the hell out of this one.

[AussieSteve]

GOAT defense + 41 ppg is a bigger load, while defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load on championship level)... you're citing 1 series as if many guys haven't had goat-level one-offs.

Lebron led categories by 0.1, while MJ might trail a category by 0.1 - who cares - statistical anomalies - Lebron never CARRIED important categories like carrying the scoring load, which means defeating max defensive attention.. By virtue of having an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention, Lebron didn't have to defeat max defensive attention and therefore had an easy load compared to MJ.

Btw, imagine how much energy it takes to shoot 54% while playing the best defense in the league (DPOY) and getting 35/6/6 on offense - and still shoot 54% - this requires infinite energy - MJ had the most energy of any player ever.

Except that LeBron has led his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks across entire playoff runs multiple times throughout his career. Including thoughout a championship run in 2016.

He led his team in at least 4 of these 5 stats, every post season from 2008 to 2020, except 2011.

Here are his post season team ranks each year.

Year: pts,trb,ast,stl,blk
2006: 1,1,1,2,2
2007: 1,2,1,1,3
2008: 1,1,1,1,1
2009: 1,1,1 1,3
2010: 1,1,1,1,1
2011: 2,2,1,1,3
2012: 1,1,1,1,2
2013: 1,1,1,1,4
2014: 1,1,1,1,3
2015: 1,1,1,1,3
2016: 1,1,1,1,1
2017: 1,2,1,1,1
2018: 1,2,1,1,1
2020: 1,1,1,1,2
2021: 1,2,1,1,5
2023: 1,2,1,2,2

GOAT load carrying. Jordan could never!

[AussieSteve]

Except that LeBron has led his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks across entire playoff runs multiple times throughout his career. Including thoughout a championship run in 2016.

He led his team in at least 4 of these 5 stats, every post season from 2008 to 2020, except 2011.

Here are his post season team ranks each year.

Year: pts,trb,ast,stl,blk
2006: 1,1,1,2,2
2007: 1,2,1,1,3
2008: 1,1,1,1,1
2009: 1,1,1 1,3
2010: 1,1,1,1,1
2011: 2,2,1,1,3
2012: 1,1,1,1,2
2013: 1,1,1,1,4
2014: 1,1,1,1,3
2015: 1,1,1,1,3
2016: 1,1,1,1,1
2017: 1,2,1,1,1
2018: 1,2,1,1,1
2020: 1,1,1,1,2
2021: 1,2,1,1,5
2023: 1,2,1,2,2

GOAT load carrying. Jordan could never!

Just noticed in the above that LeBron led his team through the playoffs in points, rebounds, assists and steals in all four of his championship runs!

I'd be intrigued to know if anyone else had even done this once!

[sdot_thadon]

Just noticed in the above that LeBron led his team through the playoffs in points, rebounds, assists and steals in all four of his championship runs!

I'd be intrigued to know if anyone else had even done this once!

With all the Lebron talk that goes on here, that's a new one I didn't know about. Goat stuff.