Can an elite defensive PG impact a defense as much as an elite center?

[dankok8]

You don't think there can be exceptions? A player's impact is limited by the players they play with and the system they play in. Nash goes to Phoenix, is surrounded by great finishers, and gets to monopolize possession and run the offense. His offensive impact skyrockets. Goes through the roof.

Can't the same be true for the defensive end of the court?

How many teams are willing to acquire the personnel to run a system that maximizes the impact of a defensive PG? In the NBA, barely any. The 2023-24 Houston Cougars are doing it at the NCAA D1 level. They have the #1 defense in the country and its historically strong, ranking as one of the best of the 21st century. Its ten-man rotation includes the following:

LJ Cryer (6'1" Guard)
Jamal Shead (6'1" Guard)
Emanuel Sharp (6'3" Guard)
J'Wan Roberts (6'7" Forward)
Damian Dunn (6'5" Guard)
Ja'Vier Francis (6'8" Forward)
Mylik Wilson (6'3" Guard)
Joseph Tugler (6'7" Forward)
Terrance Arceneaux (6'5" Guard)
Ramon Walker (6'4" Guard)

They trap/blitz ball screens excessively hard, recover, rotate, close out hard, and force a ridiculous amount of turnovers. Now, according to Basketball Reference's DBPM, Jamal Shead - a 6'1" PG - is the most impactful defender: +6.9 points per 100 possessions.

I know it's college, but it's still interesting.

I don't see why a generational defensive guard couldn't have a defensive impact appreciable to an elite defensive big if he played with the right personnel and in the right system.

No.. simply because of the sheer number of possessions that bigs affect. An elite defensive big man can contest ~40% of shots at the rim while he's on the floor and deter countless others. There is nothing a guard can do to match that over a decently large sample.

[Im Still Ballin]

Now that I think about it, Kidd's Phoenix and New Jersey teams both lacked quality rim protectors. I mean, Kenyon Martin got blocks but I question how valuable that was. He was putting up the same stats the year before Nash came and they were 23rd on defense. Jason Collins was probably underrated even if he wasn't much of a swatter.

1998 Suns: 101.8 DRtg (6th) [-3.2 rDRtg]
2000 Suns: 99.0 DRtg (3rd) [-5.1 rDRtg]
2001 Suns: 98.0 DRtg (2nd) [-5.0 rDRtg]
2002 Nets: 99.5 DRtg (1st) [-5.0 rDRtg]
2003 Nets: 98.1 DRtg [1st] [-5.5 rDRtg]
2004 Nets: 98.0 DRtg [4th] [-4.9 rDRtg]
2005 Nets: 103.1 DRtg (7th) [-3.0 rDRtg]
2006 Nets: 102.4 DRtg (4th) [-3.8 rDRtg]

1998 + 2000-2006: -4.44 rDRtg
2000-2004: -5.1 rDRtg

That's pretty crazy. For comparison, Nash's Phoenix teams from 2005-2010 had an average of +6.7 rORtg.

Six straight seasons of Nash = +6.7 rORtg
Five straight seasons of Kidd = -5.1 rDRtg

I wonder what prime Kidd could've done with those Nash Suns supporting casts.

[Xiao Yao You]

Now that I think about it, Kidd's Phoenix and New Jersey teams both lacked quality rim protectors. I mean, Kenyon Martin got blocks but I question how valuable that was. He was putting up the same stats the year before Nash came and they were 23rd on defense. Jason Collins was probably underrated even if he wasn't much of a swatter.

1998 Suns: 101.8 DRtg (6th) [-3.2 rDRtg]
2000 Suns: 99.0 DRtg (3rd) [-5.1 rDRtg]
2001 Suns: 98.0 DRtg (2nd) [-5.0 rDRtg]
2002 Nets: 99.5 DRtg (1st) [-5.0 rDRtg]
2003 Nets: 98.1 DRtg [1st] [-5.5 rDRtg]
2004 Nets: 98.0 DRtg [4th] [-4.9 rDRtg]
2005 Nets: 103.1 DRtg (7th) [-3.0 rDRtg]
2006 Nets: 102.4 DRtg (4th) [-3.8 rDRtg]

1998 + 2000-2006: -4.44 rDRtg
2000-2004: -5.1 rDRtg

That's pretty crazy. For comparison, Nash's Phoenix teams from 2005-2010 had an average of +6.7 rORtg.

Six straight seasons of Nash = +6.7 rORtg
Five straight seasons of Kidd = -5.1 rDRtg

I wonder what prime Kidd could've done with those Nash Suns supporting casts.

the east was very weak at that time

[Jasper]

I will reference PAST era and Current Era

Past era's there was an article out some years ago that proved that a PG could never lead a team to a chip.
**THINK of Big O or Steve Nash.
That being said in that era a center's defense overlapped front court play and impacted the defense.

Current era : floor is spread , so any player could impact a teams defense.
Look at Rodman, Holiday , ape Man ,Lopez.

[iamgine]

Another point for PGs are defensive leadership. PGs are more likely to be natural leaders. Therefore they are more likely to have a great effect on team defense. i.e Holding others accountable on defense. Telling others their mistakes. What defense to run on certain plays. etc.

This aspect I guess is often overlooked or not counted.

[Im Still Ballin]

the east was very weak at that time

I don't think that matters all that much. It's all relative. He had worse supporting casts than the top-seeded Western Conference teams. You give him an appreciable level of help that Nash had in Dallas and Phoenix and you'd see similar results. Put him on Detroit instead of Chauncey; I think that's a comparable level of help.

[Im Still Ballin]

Amar'e Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, and Quentin Richardson

vs.

Rip Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace

Seems comparatively even to me. You add Kidd to that Detroit team instead of Chauncey and they get markedly better. Defense was their strength and Kidd was a better defender than Billups. And the offense would improve because whatever advantage Chauncey had in shooting Kidd made up for it and more with playmaking.

Switch out Billups for Kidd and you're getting 60+ win, 7+ SRS seasons just like Nash in '05 and '07.

[dankok8]

Kidd never had impact approaching Nash. Kidd offensively was solid but could not be a centerpiece of an offensive dynasty. He had Carter and Jefferson as running mates in NJ and that team never impressed on offense. You replace Nash with him in Phoenix and they get like 4 points worse on offense and like 1 point better on defense. And as all other perimeter players, his defense just doesn't move the needle much. That NJ team in 2002 and 2003 was elite defensively but that was because of Kenyon and Collins who were elite defenders.

[iamgine]

Kidd and Billups are at the same tier to me. With Billups peaking higher in the RS while Kidd peaked higher in the Playoff.

[Im Still Ballin]

Kidd never had impact approaching Nash. Kidd offensively was solid but could not be a centerpiece of an offensive dynasty. He had Carter and Jefferson as running mates in NJ and that team never impressed on offense. You replace Nash with him in Phoenix and they get like 4 points worse on offense and like 1 point better on defense. And as all other perimeter players, his defense just doesn't move the needle much. That NJ team in 2002 and 2003 was elite defensively but that was because of Kenyon and Collins who were elite defenders.

I know the numbers you're referencing but I just feel like they can't quantify/account for what Kidd brings. Kenyon was there the year before as a 23 y/o doing his thing, playing starter minutes and accumulating blocks and steals. And yet? The defense was terrible: 23rd out of 29; 105.5 DRtg (+2.5 rDRtg).

And Collins was a bench guy getting 18 minutes in that first season. How much was he moving the needle defensively when he wasn't playing 30 minutes of the game?

Prime Kidd had a lengthy run of seemingly elevating teams on defense that shouldn't have been as good as they were. When he joined them, the defense skyrocketed, and when he left, they plummeted.

Hell, Phoenix went from a 98.0 DRtg (-5 rDRtg) in 2001 to a 104.0 DRtg (-0.5 rDRtg) in 2002. The defense got 6 points per 100 possessions worse; a decrease of -4.5 rDRtg. Went from the 2nd-ranked defense to the 12th. The only changes were Kidd and Clifford Robinson for Marbury and Joe Johnson I think.

[Im Still Ballin]

And I think that unquantifiable impact is what FultzNationRISE was referring to in the other Kidd thread I made:

This. Both are hardnosed self starters who stay focused on getting the job done. Theyre not the flashiest athletes but they play tough and smart, and because they do this from the point guard position it elevates the whole team. They lead by example and I think it sets a certain tone for the teams they play on.

Kidd's intangibles and leadership had a systemic effect on his teams. One that isn't readily seen on stat sheets. One that doesn't appear to be attributed to him when you look at the numbers but most likely is. Even if he was an asshole off the court.

Even Nash's on/off, RAPM, and box-derived numbers don't speak to his true impact. His value is shown through deeper-level lineup analysis.

[tpols]

I know the numbers you're referencing but I just feel like they can't quantify/account for what Kidd brings. Kenyon was there the year before as a 23 y/o doing his thing, playing starter minutes and accumulating blocks and steals. And yet? The defense was terrible: 23rd out of 29; 105.5 DRtg (+2.5 rDRtg).

And Collins was a bench guy getting 18 minutes in that first season. How much was he moving the needle defensively when he wasn't playing 30 minutes of the game?

Prime Kidd had a lengthy run of seemingly elevating teams on defense that shouldn't have been as good as they were. When he joined them, the defense skyrocketed, and when he left, they plummeted.

Hell, Phoenix went from a 98.0 DRtg (-5 rDRtg) in 2001 to a 104.0 DRtg (-0.5 rDRtg) in 2002. The defense got 6 points per 100 possessions worse; a decrease of -4.5 rDRtg. Went from the 2nd-ranked defense to the 12th. The only changes were Kidd and Clifford Robinson for Marbury and Joe Johnson I think.

KMart was known for spiking the ball into like the 3rd row on his blocks and then screaming his head off. He brought great energy but the dude is kind of dumb. And like you said Jason Collins only played small minutes so to infer he was the reason for their #1 ranked defense is too absurd to put into words. Collins was also one of the least athletic centers in the league a slow plodder. That poster has absolutely no idea what he's talking about on this particular topic.

And like you showed everywhere Kidd went defense got dramatically better. Him and Nash were two opposite sides of the coin. Nash led #1 offenses with his offensive ability and leadership and Kidd led #1 defenses with his defensive / rebounding ability and leadership. Dude was a menace out there with his anticipation, natural instincts, speed, strength, and communication.

[Im Still Ballin]

KMart was known for spiking the ball into like the 3rd row on his blocks and then screaming his head off. He brought great energy but the dude is kind of dumb. And like you said Jason Collins only played small minutes so to infer he was the reason for their #1 ranked defense is too absurd to put into words. Collins was also one of the least athletic centers in the league a slow plodder. That poster has absolutely no idea what he's talking about on this particular topic.

And like you showed everywhere Kidd went defense got dramatically better. Him and Nash were two opposite sides of the coin. Nash led #1 offenses with his offensive ability and leadership and Kidd led #1 defenses with his defensive / rebounding ability and leadership. Dude was a menace out there with his anticipation, natural instincts, speed, strength, and communication.

If a big man had a defensive stretch like that, he'd be thought of as a generational, game-changing defender. A "best of his era" defender. But because of the bias against the guard position, many people take Kidd's defense for granted.

Dikembe:

Denver 1991-92: +0.4 rDRtg
Denver 1992-93: -1.7 rDRtg
Denver 1993-94: -4.0 rDRtg
Denver 1994-95: -0.1 rDRtg
Denver 1995-96: +0.5 rDRtg
Atlanta 1996-97: -4.4 rDRtg
Atlanta 1997-98: -0.7 rDRtg
Atlanta 1998-99: -5.1 rDRtg
Atlanta 1999-00: +3.8 rDRtg
Atlanta 2000-01: -1.8 rDRtg (49 games); Philadelphia 2000-01: -1.9 rDRtg (26 games)
Philadelphia 2001-02: -4.2 rDRtg

He was blocking upwards of 4 to 4.5 shots per game and was playing with Kenyon Martin-like Antonio McDyess and one of the best defensive guards of the '90s in Mookie Blaylock. And his team numbers don't quite hang with Kidd's. Still great, but not as good. Only Tim Duncan comfortably surpasses him and he had a great defensive help.

[dankok8]

I know the numbers you're referencing but I just feel like they can't quantify/account for what Kidd brings. Kenyon was there the year before as a 23 y/o doing his thing, playing starter minutes and accumulating blocks and steals. And yet? The defense was terrible: 23rd out of 29; 105.5 DRtg (+2.5 rDRtg).

And Collins was a bench guy getting 18 minutes in that first season. How much was he moving the needle defensively when he wasn't playing 30 minutes of the game?

Prime Kidd had a lengthy run of seemingly elevating teams on defense that shouldn't have been as good as they were. When he joined them, the defense skyrocketed, and when he left, they plummeted.

Hell, Phoenix went from a 98.0 DRtg (-5 rDRtg) in 2001 to a 104.0 DRtg (-0.5 rDRtg) in 2002. The defense got 6 points per 100 possessions worse; a decrease of -4.5 rDRtg. Went from the 2nd-ranked defense to the 12th. The only changes were Kidd and Clifford Robinson for Marbury and Joe Johnson I think.

Kidd's ON-OFF DRtg doesn't paint him as an impactful defender remotely comparable to big men. Now, admittedly, it's a noisy stat but defensive bigs still show a consistent signal. Kidd doesn't show any consistent signal.

The Phoenix situation is unique because they replaced Kidd with Marbury who is one of the most negative defenders ever according to metrics. Also worth a mention that the Suns actually got better on offense without Kidd going from 100.3 ORtg (-2.7 rORtg) in 2001 to 103.3 (-1.2 rORtg) in 2002. By the way, prime Kidd leading a -2.7 rORtg offense with decent offensive help pretty much disqualifies him from any Nash comparisons. Not to mention in Jersey, with Carter, Jefferson and good role players from 2005 to 2007, their offenses were -4.7, -2.3 and -0.8 rORtg, respectively. That's an abysmal record.

This comparison is actually insulting to Nash.

[Im Still Ballin]

Kidd's ON-OFF DRtg doesn't paint him as an impactful defender remotely comparable to big men. Now, admittedly, it's a noisy stat but defensive bigs still show a consistent signal. Kidd doesn't show any consistent signal.

The Phoenix situation is unique because they replaced Kidd with Marbury who is one of the most negative defenders ever according to metrics. Also worth a mention that the Suns actually got better on offense without Kidd going from 100.3 ORtg (-2.7 rORtg) in 2001 to 103.3 (-1.2 rORtg) in 2002. By the way, prime Kidd leading a -2.7 rORtg offense with decent offensive help pretty much disqualifies him from any Nash comparisons. Not to mention in Jersey, with Carter, Jefferson and good role players from 2005 to 2007, their offenses were -4.7, -2.3 and -0.8 rORtg, respectively. That's an abysmal record.

This comparison is actually insulting to Nash.

The consistent signal is that when he joined teams in his prime, they got better - and largely because of defense. And when he left the opposite happened. And these teams weren't trading him for scraps, either. They gave up win-now pieces. As I said before, there's impact that the numbers can't quantify. And for no player is this more true than Jason Kidd.