Who is the actual best player in the NBA in 2024

[Manny98]

I don't have any stake in the matter, but can someone explain to me why Jokic who scores 10 less points per game than Embiid on roughly the same efficiency, and 5 less points than Giannis on lower efficient and averages only 3 more assists than both is so head-and-shoulders better? Especially considering the mollywhopping comparison on defense?

I've heard it said SEVERAL times it's not close as well. How on earth can it not be close?

Playoffs

[beasted]

Playoffs

Based on playoff history, last season was a heavy outlier for Jokic. Otherwise his playoff numbers are certainly not better than Giannis.

[j3lademaster]

I don't have any stake in the matter, but can someone explain to me why Jokic who scores 10 less points per game than Embiid on roughly the same efficiency, and 5 less points than Giannis on lower efficient and averages only 3 more assists than both is so head-and-shoulders better? Especially considering the mollywhopping comparison on defense?

I've heard it said SEVERAL times it's not close as well. How on earth can it not be close?

You can’t use stats to prop up Giannis and Embiid over Jokic and subsequently just ignore Jokic’s monster defensive stats and call him getting “mollywhopped” in that regard.

[SouBeachTalents]

Based on playoff history, last season was a heavy outlier for Jokic. Otherwise his playoff numbers are certainly not better than Giannis.

Jokic averaged 30/12/5 on 61%TS in the playoffs the 2 seasons before they won the championship. Granted, it was a small sample size, but that's what happens when you're missing your 2nd option for 2 years. But that's pretty damn close to what he averaged during his title run, and showed what he was capable of when he had a championship caliber team around him.

If anything, you could argue Giannis' title run is the real aberration, as outside of 2022 he never came close to averaging 30 ppg in the playoffs again, and even in 2022 his efficiency fell off a cliff.

While I don't think I need to even delve into Embiid's playoff track record, that shit speaks for itself

[Phoenix]

The Nuggets as far as championship teams go or even compared to the rest of the league aren't especially talented. They're well-coached, play 5 man ball and led by an historically great offensive anchor. What Jokic does offensively is such a floor raiser than it does make up for his relative defensive deficiencies to guys like Giannis or Embiid. Even defensively, while no he's not winning any DPOY awards I think he's better on that side than given credit for.

In truth Jokic/Giannis/Embiid could all be the best on any given night. It's not like Jordan in the 90s, Shaq in 2000 or Lebron in the early 10s where everyone else is competing for 2nd.

[beasted]

You can’t use stats to prop up Giannis and Embiid over Jokic and subsequently just ignore Jokic’s monster defensive stats and call him getting “mollywhopped” in that regard.

I'm comparing individual stats. What individual stats tell you that Jokic is a good defender? Do any of those stats pass the eye test?

You should probably ask and answer these questions within your internal dialog when evaluating their defense.

From my view, Jokic is very thoroughly average defensively. He will not come close to a defensive team selection based on his current impact.

[beasted]

Jokic averaged 30/12/5 on 61%TS in the playoffs the 2 seasons before they won the championship. Granted, it was a small sample size, but that's what happens when you're missing your 2nd option for 2 years. But that's pretty damn close to what he averaged during his title run, and showed what he was capable of when he had a championship caliber team around him.

If anything, you could argue Giannis' title run is the real aberration, as outside of 2022 he never came close to averaging 30 ppg in the playoffs again, and even in 2022 his efficiency fell off a cliff.

While I don't think I need to even delve into Embiid's playoff track record, that shit speaks for itself

He nearly averaged as many turnovers as assists. But I agree on the sample size being small.

[j3lademaster]

I'm comparing individual stats. What individual stats tell you that Jokic is a good defender? Do any of those stats pass the eye test?

You should probably ask and answer these questions within your internal dialog when evaluating their defense.

From my view, Jokic is very thoroughly average defensively. He will not come close to a defensive team selection based on his current impact.

Advanced stats matter much more for defense than simple stats. They're a much better indicator than blocks per game or steals, zero chance Theo Ratliff was a better defender than Dennis Rodman, right?

top 5 in dws in order: gobert, joker/ant(tied), AD, Shai. All guys seen as elite defenders, except the show white guy.

top 5 in dpm in order: joker, Thybulle, Wemby, Hartenstein, and Shai.

Outlier year for Joker?

2023 dws- Joker is 8th with 3.8, Embiid is barely ahead at 3.9 and Giannis is at 3.7.

2023 top 5 dpm- Joker, Caruso, Giannis, Draymond, Anderson

2022?

top 5 dpm- joker, Giannis, Thybulle, Timelord, Horford

dws- Tatum, Joker, Gobert, Embiid, Timelord

I'm not saying Joker is all def. Neither he or Embiid are; Gobert is too good on that end in the regular season. But he's close enough that his superior offense, especially in the playoffs make him the best player:

Joker 28/12/7/1/1 on 53/41/82 over 68 games

Embiid 24/11/3/1/2 on 46/28/82 over 53 games

Giannis 27/12/5/1/1 on 53/26/62 over 79 games

I'm cool with Giannis being bitw, but Embiid is an outlier and doesn't belong in this conversation. Joker is a good defender in his own right, despite looking like he's never attempted a tricep extension in his life. A huge part of defense is to take away driving lanes and cuts before the offense even sees them, but most people don't notice this stuff.

[beasted]

Advanced stats matter much more for defense than simple stats. They're a much better indicator than blocks per game or steals, zero chance Theo Ratliff was a better defender than Dennis Rodman, right?

top 5 in dws in order: gobert, joker/ant(tied), AD, Shai. All guys seen as elite defenders, except the show white guy.

top 5 in dpm in order: joker, Thybulle, Wemby, Hartenstein, and Shai.

Outlier year for Joker?

2023 dws- Joker is 8th with 3.8, Embiid is barely ahead at 3.9 and Giannis is at 3.7.

2023 top 5 dpm- Joker, Caruso, Giannis, Draymond, Anderson

2022?

top 5 dpm- joker, Giannis, Thybulle, Timelord, Horford

dws- Tatum, Joker, Gobert, Embiid, Timelord

I'm not saying Joker is all def. Neither he or Embiid are; Gobert is too good on that end in the regular season. But he's close enough that his superior offense, especially in the playoffs make him the best player:

Joker 28/12/7/1/1 on 53/41/82 over 68 games

Embiid 24/11/3/1/2 on 46/28/82 over 53 games

Giannis 27/12/5/1/1 on 53/26/62 over 79 games

I'm cool with Giannis being bitw, but Embiid is an outlier and doesn't belong in this conversation. Joker is a good defender in his own right, despite looking like he's never attempted a tricep extension in his life. A huge part of defense is to take away driving lanes and cuts before the offense even sees them, but most people don't notice this stuff.

Hate to break it to you, but outside of tracking stats, all other advanced defensive metrics are estimates of impact. DBPM, DWS, DRtg all point to the team's effort, or the effectiveness of each 5-man unit.

There's no way you don't know how those metrics are calculated, so at this point you're just trying to support your point rather than present any analysis.

[beasted]

Also, stop race baiting. Joker IS slow. Fact, not opinion.

That's not taking anything away from the fact that he competes and defends within the system. But he has average instincts and cannot keep up with quicker players, clearly. What helps is that he puts in the effort which is half the battle. I don't see him taking possessions off defensively like so many other stars. I liken him to Curry. I think Curry is a very solid system defender despite being hidden at times.

But everyone with eyes can see his short comings defensively.

[BarberSchool]

In a game of 1-on-1 ?

Or 3-on-3 ?

5-on-5 ?

[Micku]

Jokic for me.

I don't think it's head and shoulders tho.

I can see arguments for Giannis or Embiid pre injury.

Jokic is the best floor-raiser and seems the most versatile on the offense. He's the best offensive player in the league. Imo, he is in that goat lvl offense.

Giannis, despite being limited in his way to score, he is unstoppable. We'll see in the POs when defenses get more complex, but he is having a great season. Great help defender, great rotation defender, solid passer. Probably underrated on that front. He isn't getting talked about as much as he should this season despite him putting up monster stats.

Embiid was there. The best scorer in the game before he got hurt. Improved on his passing. Defense was solid, but I think he might've been one of the most difficult to guard. His midrange was unstoppable this year. I think he falls in love with his jumpshot too much and doesn't exploit the mismatches, but he was so good. I honestly was thinking he might've been the best player this year before he got hurt.

Luka is great, just too much iso but it could be due to the team. SGA is so consistent. He's up there as well.

But ultimately I feel it's Jokic. The way he plays off the ball and his passing game is so good. How he sets the screens and his lvl of threat of scoring either from the pop or the roll gives his teammates some good shots. I think he is one of the best screen threats I've seen. His vision and passing game are on that goat tier. Even though he leads the league in touches, he doesn't hold on to the ball much at all. I love some of the sets they run with him coming off screens and shooting a midrange or going to the basket. It's really hard to defend. Since he is one of the best screen threats, there are times where he'll have a mismatch on him. He'll exploit it, and if you double, he's one of the best passers in nba history and just sets up his teammates. It's amazing to see. Plus he has a great touch in the paint. Jokic is crazy unselfish when it comes to scoring tho. He legit would only have 7 FGA, be cool with it, and still be the best player cuz of how he controlled the game. It reminds me of Magic and Bird back in the day.

His defense is okay. He has good position, but he doesn't contest sometimes. Probably because he doesn't want to get into foul trouble. And he lacks lateral quickness. He has great hands and deflects a lot. He isn't a bad defender. And there is a lot of underrated stuff that doesn't appear on the boxscore. The guy has a high IQ and tell the teammates where to position themselves on the opponent's plays. Dude is the best floor general in the game rn. I remember LeBron and cp3 would do that on both ends.

[Manny98]

Based on playoff history, last season was a heavy outlier for Jokic. Otherwise his playoff numbers are certainly not better than Giannis.

Certainly better than Embitch

[Axe]

Jokic averaged 30/12/5 on 61%TS in the playoffs the 2 seasons before they won the championship. Granted, it was a small sample size, but that's what happens when you're missing your 2nd option for 2 years. But that's pretty damn close to what he averaged during his title run, and showed what he was capable of when he had a championship caliber team around him.

If anything, you could argue Giannis' title run is the real aberration, as outside of 2022 he never came close to averaging 30 ppg in the playoffs again, and even in 2022 his efficiency fell off a cliff.

While I don't think I need to even delve into Embiid's playoff track record, that shit speaks for itself

Well, he certainly impacts his team a lot more in the playoffs than this guy.