"Michael Jordan was not a good leader" - Bill Cartwright

[Overdrive]

People in general are ingrates. Nobody would remember Bill Cartwright if he didn't play on the first threepeat Bulls.

You don't get either post. It's not about vow Bill Cartwright is viewed, but how he felt working for the Bulls. He obviously didn't like it and that's a sentiment that should be respected. That doesn't make Jordan a worse basketballplayer, but some of you guys go out of your way defending everything about your favourite player - up to dicksize, because it just can't be that you'd root for a nonperfect human being.

[ImKobe]

Jordan probably reached his level of greatness because he was a complete sociopath. You kind of have to be to perform at your best when the pressure is at it's highest. Doesn't mean his teammates deserved to be disrespected as much, but his approach clearly worked for him.

This is nothing new though, we know he's been an asshole for decades. There's so many stories of Jordan being an asshole to random people outside of sports.

[tpols]

You can be an asshole and still be a great leader. The two labels aren't mutually exclusive.

Steve Jobs and Bill Gates were notorious assholes, yet led companies to the top with their work ethic and ruthlessness. Being a leader doesn't mean being a nice guy.

[warriorfan]

In the Jordan Rules they mentioned Jordan walking down a hallway and Stacey King was walking towards him carrying a box. Jordan says "I hope you got a jump shot in there".

jordan is the best

[Kblaze8855]

People in general are ingrates. Nobody would remember Bill Cartwright if he didn't play on the first threepeat Bulls.

Nobody remembers either of us at all. That mean we don’t get to have opinions on people we worked with who treated people badly?

I don’t know why fans think team success or fame matters to people who just want to be treated decently.

Winning a ring doesn’t define the life of a 70 year old who led a full life to anyone but fans who don’t know him. That shit isn’t life. Hundreds of people have rings. Doesn’t mean they’re supposed to be walking around 30-50 years later licking the boots of players on the team if they treated them like shit. People with rings are working at a car wash right now at 58. That shit means nothing to real life.

It’s like fans forget people are human first. That’s a grown ass man. You think he’s basing his personal opinions on people he practically lived with on ring count? Really? You think that’s how personal relationships are measured? Professional success?

I somehow doubt everyone who played with Shaq would tell you he’s a great leader just because he won a sack of rings. Being a dominant player and being a great leader just aren’t the same thing. Haslem was voted captain like 12-15 years in a row and peaked at slightly above average. Greatness and leadership are related but mostly in that legacy talk fan perspective. The leadership among the players and team isnt always what outsiders may think.

Not having been in the locker room all I can do is get it from those who were. Not like anyone questions his ability to play. A lot of them seem to have issues with behavior. And success doesn’t make it invalid any more than it does in any other walk of life. Jordan might have been a shit human and leader who won because he was great at basketball(there have been several) and he may have been the cliche fiery leader who pushed people to be the best.

Ive heard suggestions from inside that lean both ways. I don’t know what’s true. I just know I’m in no position to say because I saw them on tv.

[warriorfan]

Nobody remembers either of us at all. That mean we don’t get to have opinions on people we worked with who treated people badly?

I don’t know why fans think team success or fame matters to people who just want to be treated decently.

Winning a ring doesn’t define the life of a 70 year old who led a full life to anyone but fans who don’t know him. That shit isn’t life. Hundreds of people have rings. Doesn’t mean they’re supposed to be walking around 30-50 years later licking the boots of players on the team if they treated them like shit. People with rings are working at a car wash right now at 58. That shit means nothing to real life.

It’s like fans forget people are human first. That’s a grown ass man. You think he’s basing his personal opinions on people he practically lived with on ring count? Really? You think that’s how personal relationships are measured? Professional success?

I somehow doubt everyone who played with Shaq would tell you he’s a great leader just because he won a sack of rings. Being a dominant player and being a great leader just aren’t the same thing. Haslem was voted captain like 12-15 years in a row and peaked at slightly above average. Greatness and leadership are related but mostly in that legacy talk fan perspective. The leadership among the players and team isnt always what outsiders may think.

Not having been in the locker room all I can do is get it from those who were. Not like anyone questions his ability to play. A lot of them seem to have issues with behavior. And success doesn’t make it invalid any more than it does in any other walk of life. Jordan might have been a shit human and leader who won because he was great at basketball(there have been several) and he may have been the cliche fiery leader who pushed people to be the best.

Ive heard suggestions from inside that lean both ways. I don’t know what’s true. I just know I’m in no position to say because I saw them on tv.

No one gives a f.uck if Bill Cartwright or any other athlete gets their feelings hurt

We men.

[tpols]

I'm honestly trying to think of great leaders who weren't assholes. 99% are because they have the most talent and highest standards and they're constantly trying to get people below them to rise their level up to what they expect from themselves.

Ever seen a Gordon Ramsey video?



3 Star Michelin Chef who took all his money and put it into a GOAT level restaurant and I could show you many more videos of him absolutely shitting on people.

That's the GOAT standard though... and the only way you can make it that high with a team is to be an asshole when people **** up and make them rise to your level.

[Kblaze8855]

No one gives a f.uck if Bill Cartwright or any other athlete gets their feelings hurt

We men.

As I understand it Bill handled it like one and told him he’d break both his legs if he kept disrespecting and he stopped ****ing with him. Sports fans have to be the only group of people who rep the bully not the one who stands up to it like we all teach our sons to do.

If you want to call someone trying to bully you hurting your feelings you do that. That isn’t generally how it’s looked at. To me…getting on people you have more professional status than kinda feels like a bitch move. Guys like Jordan or Kobe or Lebron know they have the power franchise wise. You can push people around with it.

I don’t know why it’s seen as tough in sports. Some nobody can’t handle one of these stars like you do man to man without losing money and status so they can act tough. To me the tough ones are the ones who stand up for themselves. Takes a lot more toughness for some washed up vet barely hanging on to stand up to some loud mouthed superstar than for that star to talk shit to someone 50 tiers below him on the power rankings.

Stars are protected by status. Role players have to man up. The hero worship, fame, and financial considerations make it easy for stars to be tough. That we all go through life seeing these ******* in power picking on the little guy who can’t fight back without risking his career and don’t see how lame it is amazes me.

The guy with all the power and status pushing people around isn’t being a man. The one who stands up for himself is far more respectable. Status just makes most little guys take it. It’s telling when one won’t put up with it.

Thats the one acting like a man.

[Baller234]

As I understand it Bill handled it like one and told him he’d break both his legs if he kept disrespecting and he stopped ****ing with him. Sports fans have to be the only group of people who rep the bully not the one who stands up to it like we all teach our sons to do.

If you want to call someone trying to bully you hurting your feelings you do that. That isn’t generally how it’s looked at. To me…getting on people you have more professional status than kinda feels like a bitch move. Guys like Jordan or Kobe or Lebron know they have the power franchise wise. You can push people around with it.

I don’t know why it’s seen as tough in sports. Some nobody can’t handle one of these stars like you do man to man without losing money and status so they can act tough. To me the tough ones are the ones who stand up for themselves. Takes a lot more toughness for some washed up vet barely hanging on to stand up to some loud mouthed superstar than for that star to talk shit to someone 50 tiers below him on the power rankings.

Stars are protected by status. Role players have to man up. The hero worship, fame, and financial considerations make it easy for stars to be tough. That we all go through life seeing these ******* in power picking on the little guy who can’t fight back without risking his career and don’t see how lame it is amazes me.

The guy with all the power and status pushing people around isn’t being a man. The one who stands up for himself is far more respectable. Status just makes most little guys take it. It’s telling when one won’t put up with it.

Thats the one acting like a man.

Jordan wanted to make sure his teammates were killers. Poking them was part of it. He said as much in the Last Dance. He wanted his guys to get on the same level as him. I think making Bill angry was the point.

And what do you know... Bill gets to go down in history now. No it probably isn't the most important thing in his life, but I bet he's made a decent living off that name and being who he is. Without Jordan that doesn't happen. He's probably just another retired player that barely anyone knows. He definitely isn't doing podcasts 30 years later.

[dankok8]

I didn't get an impression that Cartwright wanted to rip on MJ in that interview. He just talked about how MJ treated people. Besides leadership is such a slippery concept. And a bit overrated at that because all NBA stars are obviously very self-motivated people. Take for instance Steve Kerr. He's extremely competitive which you can see if you ever watched him even as a coach. Did he really need MJ blasting him or punching him or whatever to get the most out of himself? I doubt it.

[Kblaze8855]

You think overly aggressive managers in any walk of life justified with anything but wanting improve performance? That’s always the line. The fact is some people are just jerks. And the position there and allows them to get away with it. The shit isn’t unique to sports. And the root cause is the same. It isn’t necessary for success. I’ve yet to hear story on anyone having to tell Duncan they would beat his ass. Russell was intense but he had the love and respect of everybody around him. There are stories you can read about his time as player coach just showing respect to everyone around him as men and letting everyone have input from the rookie to the other stars. He won more than anybody before him, or since on all levels. You don’t have to be hated to win.

Forget Jordan for a moment. The hero worship associated with big names makes it hard. The name doesn’t really matter. There have been both successful and unsuccessful assholes who use their position of power to push people around because of professional or societal restrictions on how you can handle it.

It isn’t some positive trait when the person is great at their job. Be it Jordan and Kobe disrespecting people or LeBron with his subliminal shots in the media and treating people like they’re beneath him? It’s all soft behavior to me. These people are protected by status, not toughness. It’s money and fame. It’s being the star. Someone like Kevin Love should’ve stepped to LeBron and told him if he has a problem, he can come talk to him not send stupid “stop trying to fit out and fit in” messages through the media because I’m not in your little clique. Guy was going through all kind of problems and suffered personally and professionally.

Yes, he won. A lot of people have had professional success around assholes. Doesn’t make them less of an asshole. I have more respect for an asshole acting that way towards a true peer. ****ing with people who can’t defend themselves without risking their livelihood and status is just soft.

I somehow doubt LeBron was doing that shit to Wade. Kobe I can give more of a pass because he was an asshole to Shaq as well. But Shaq was in a position to stand up for himself, and he did. Shaq will come to you. The little people? That’s the difference between being tough and being a bully. Some nobody can’t step to an icon. You’re off the team, if not out of the NBA. Jordans day it was more acceptable to stand up for yourself. Cartwright did. Robert Parish,m went to Jordan and told him he wasn’t as enamored as these young players when he was pushing him around. Jordan told him he would beat his ass, and Robert is said to walked right up to his face and told him no, he really wouldn’t.

Classic bully behavior. Push till they step up to you. Guys like Bill and Parish were long established vets who wouldn’t put up with it. Thats being a man. Sports fans are so caught up in hero worship they support The attempted bully who backs down when somebody stands up to him. Sports totally rewrites the minds of people. Like it isn’t life anymore.

every person reading this would smile if not outright cheer if the new guy cussed out or just slapped the established guy trying to push him around. In real life we rep the one who stood up for himself not the guy using his status to get away with being a jerk in ways you can’t outside work.

[Kblaze8855]

And what do you know... Bill gets to go down in history now. No it probably isn't the most important thing in his life, but I bet he's made a decent living off that name and being who he is. Without Jordan that doesn't happen. He's probably just another retired player that barely anyone knows. He definitely isn't doing podcasts 30 years later.

Bill was the best player in California, a college all American, the third pick in the draft, an all star on the Knicks, a 15 year vet, and a coach for 17 years. I suspect he’d still be ok if the Knicks traded him to the Warriors. I doubt that no name podcast is paying his bills. NBA lifers don’t need random 19-year-olds to remember them to make a living. He makes over 200K a year just off his player pension. And he has his coaches one on top of that. And the millions he made playing and coaching. He doesn’t strike me as an idiot. I’m sure he would get by if people who already don’t respect him simply didn’t remember his name. Players don’t owe stars they played with their lives.

[Airupthere]

Basketball is not comparable to typical work places. Yes MJ was an asshole, but imagine being in a sport full of assholes, from players to coaches, management, media, etc.

[Kblaze8855]

Basketball is not comparable to typical work places. Yes MJ was an asshole, but imagine being in a sport full of assholes, from players to coaches, management, media, etc.

sounds like life. I’ve never worked anywhere that wasn’t full of assholes. Have you? Is it your life experience that assholes are rare, outsides sports?

[tpols]

I've never seen anybody get cursed out in corporate office jobs like I did in locker rooms or kitchens. Definitely a different standard of communication. HR would have your ass whacked if there was proof of abuse and there's no HR in the previously mentioned domains.