What's a better starting hand (poker analogy)

[3ba11]

.

A) a 23-year old rookie that averages 8 ppg and is trash until his mid-20's (Pippen)

B) a 19-year old number 1 pick that averages 17-24 right away (Wiggins)

both guys needed goat-scoring teammates and systems to perform at all-star level.

in addition to Wiggins, the #1 pick Kyrie was a better starting hand (all-star MVP in 2014) and top 10 player Love was also a better starting hand in 2014 (ready-made superstar)..

heck, Larry Hughes was 22/5/5 first-team defender in 2005, which is better starting hand than 23-year old rookie that averages 8 ppg.. heck, Pippen wasn't better than all-stars Mo Williams, Jamison or Zydrunas until 1991.

[warriorfan]

.

A) a 23-year old rookie that averages 8 ppg and is trash until his mid-20's (Pippen)

B) a 19-year old number 1 pick that averages 17-24 right away (Wiggins)

both guys needed goat-scoring teammates and systems to perform at all-star level.

in addition to Wiggins, #1 pick Kyrie was a better starting hand and top 10 player Love was also a better starting hand in 2014.

In 2014 the year before joining with LeBron as his third option. Kevin Love posted 26.5/12.5/4.5/TS% 59.1

The only other two players to ever achieve this is

Prime Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Prime Giannis Antetokounmpo

[Jasper]

grouping Wiggins in with Pip is a joke ...

Wiggins should never have been an all-star as well as MVP(.)

[3ba11]

Wiggins should never have been an all-star

20 ppg with good defense on a winning team is normally all-star caliber

So the only thing Wiggins was lacking in Minnesota was the winning team part.

Btw, the winning system made Wiggins an all-star but he always had the stats, whereas Pippen needed the system just to have viable stats, let alone be an all-star - Pippen was nothing outside the system that he grew up in, while at least Wiggins was still a 24 ppg player outside of a winning system.

grouping Wiggins in with Pip is a joke ...

Wiggins should never have been an all-star as well as MVP(.)

If you were a GM and looking to find a sidekick for Jordan, would you prefer a 23-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg, or would you prefer a prodigal athlete and #1 pick at 19 years old that averaged 17-24 right away?.... (and his great athleticism could develop into a great defender under MJ's tutelege just like Pippen did)

We all saw Wiggins have a signature lockdown performance as the primary defender in the 22' Finals against Tatum, which Pippen never had - Tatum was red-hot until he ran into Wiggins and the muting of Tatum is the main reason the Warriors won that series.. So the capacity for great defense was always there with Wiggins and MJ would certainly bring it out just like he did with Pippen.. Pippen was lucky to land alongside the DPOY/MVP to influence his 2-way development.

[Charlie Sheen]

.

A) a 23-year old rookie that averages 8 ppg and is trash until his mid-20's (Pippen)

B) a 19-year old number 1 pick that averages 17-24 right away (Wiggins)

both guys needed goat-scoring teammates and systems to perform at all-star level.

in addition to Wiggins, the #1 pick Kyrie was a better starting hand (all-star MVP in 2014) and top 10 player Love was also a better starting hand in 2014 (ready-made superstar)..

heck, Larry Hughes was 22/5/5 first-team defender in 2005, which is better starting hand than 23-year old rookie that averages 8 ppg.. heck, Pippen wasn't better than all-stars Mo Williams, Jamison or Zydrunas until 1991.

Considering how it worked out for Wiggins in Minnesota... you could say pocket suited is why bad poker players are in way too many hands chasing a flush and losing

[3ba11]

Considering how it worked out for Wiggins in Minnesota... you could say pocket suited is why bad poker players are in way too many hands chasing a flush and losing

The point is that 19-year old Wiggins was far superior to 23-year old rookie Pippen and considered far more talented, so MJ would develop Wiggins 20 ppg to far greater heights than he developed Pippen's 8 ppg.

And both Wiggins/Pippen are great athletes that Jordan would develop into all-defenders.. Even without MJ's mentorship, we saw Wiggins natural defensive talent come out when he had a signature lockdown performance as the primary defender in the 22' Finals, which Pippen never had.. So imagine if Wiggins had MJ from Day 1 to show him how to get the most out of his talent.. He would've been far better than Pippen ever was because he started with more raw talent.

[Hey Yo]

What was the most wins and playoff wins did Wiggins lead his team to in a single season?

[SATAN]

OP is lame.

[Overdrive]

.

A) a 23-year old rookie that averages 8 ppg and is trash until his mid-20's (Pippen)

B) a 19-year old number 1 pick that averages 17-24 right away (Wiggins)

both guys needed goat-scoring teammates and systems to perform at all-star level.

in addition to Wiggins, the #1 pick Kyrie was a better starting hand (all-star MVP in 2014) and top 10 player Love was also a better starting hand in 2014 (ready-made superstar)..

heck, Larry Hughes was 22/5/5 first-team defender in 2005, which is better starting hand than 23-year old rookie that averages 8 ppg.. heck, Pippen wasn't better than all-stars Mo Williams, Jamison or Zydrunas until 1991.

Where exactly is the anology?

[3ba11]

What was the most wins and playoff wins did Wiggins lead his team to in a single season?

Pippen is a litmus test for how MJ develops long, athletic wings because Pippen was the bottom of the barrel as a 24-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg - so Wiggins was far more talented at 19 than Pippen was at 24 and therefore had more capacity to develop to greater heights than Pippen ever did.. This is intuitive - if a player is more talented, than he has more capacity/potential to develop into an even greater player given the right circumstance and opportunity to reach that potential.. So given Wiggins' superior talent, MJ would've won earlier and easier with Wiggins since Wiggins was getting 17-24 right away as a 19-year old number 1 pick, instead of waiting 5 years for 27-year old Pippen to finally scrape 20 ppg.

[tpols]

We saw what Wiggins was capable of in a high level system. Going from the shitty twolves to Golden State he put up as good a playoff run as Pippen ever did, was the 2nd scoring option on a championship team, and totally locked down Tatum. His parents were Olympic athletes and his measurables are the same as Pippens (or better). The ONLY thing Wiggins ever lacked was ambition. So there's no doubt in my mind MJ couldn't have whooped his ass into shape like he did Pippen.

[Hey Yo]

Pippen is a litmus test for how MJ develops long, athletic wings because Pippen was the bottom of the barrel as a 24-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg - so Wiggins was far more talented at 19 than Pippen was at 24 and therefore had more capacity to develop to greater heights than Pippen ever did.. This is intuitive - if a player is more talented, than he has more capacity/potential to develop into an even greater player given the right circumstance and opportunity to reach that potential.. So given Wiggins' superior talent, MJ would've won earlier and easier with Wiggins since Wiggins was getting 17-24 right away as a 19-year old number 1 pick, instead of waiting 5 years for 27-year old Pippen to finally scrape 20 ppg.

How many All-NBA and All Defensive teams did Wiggins make? Surely he must have more than Pippen since he avg. more PPG than Pip, no?? Wiggins ever finish top 3 in MVP voting?

[ShawkFactory]

We saw what Wiggins was capable of in a high level system. Going from the shitty twolves to Golden State he put up as good a playoff run as Pippen ever did, was the 2nd scoring option on a championship team, and totally locked down Tatum. His parents were Olympic athletes and his measurables are the same as Pippens (or better). The ONLY thing Wiggins ever lacked was ambition. So there's no doubt in my mind MJ couldn't have whooped his ass into shape like he did Pippen.

Wiggins’s issue as well is that he just wasn’t good enough to be a legit #1. I don’t know if it was the system so much as alleviating the pressure of carrying a scoring load. It allowed him to focus on playing winning basketball instead of trying to score 25 every night.

The “as good of a playoff run as Pippen ever did” is just patently false and complete nonsense.

[Charlie Sheen]

The point is that 19-year old Wiggins was far superior to 23-year old rookie Pippen and considered far more talented, so MJ would develop Wiggins 20 ppg to far greater heights than he developed Pippen's 8 ppg.

And both Wiggins/Pippen are great athletes that Jordan would develop into all-defenders.. Even without MJ's mentorship, we saw Wiggins natural defensive talent come out when he had a signature lockdown performance as the primary defender in the 22' Finals, which Pippen never had.. So imagine if Wiggins had MJ from Day 1 to show him how to get the most out of his talent.. He would've been far better than Pippen ever was because he started with more raw talent.

My point was that you are overvaluing the #1 pick status. I do not really care much about the rest of the stuff you wrote

[tpols]

Wiggins’s issue as well is that he just wasn’t good enough to be a legit #1. I don’t know if it was the system so much as alleviating the pressure of carrying a scoring load. It allowed him to focus on playing winning basketball instead of trying to score 25 every night.

The “as good of a playoff run as Pippen ever did” is just patently false and complete nonsense.

It's not nonsense at all. In the 2022 playoffs Wiggins put up identical Pippen offensive production and he was playing straight jacket lock down defense on the opposing teams best player. Outside of 1991, Pippen never even had a playoff run that matched 2022 Wiggins.