Taking shots like this will generally make you less efficient but….

[tpols]

Im not saying having a tough shot maker on the court at the end of the game isnt helpful. Im saying that ability alone doesnt justify a guy playing sub optimal basketball for the whole game until that point.

The 2009 Lakers went 65-17 with the 3rd best offense and 2nd best assist rank (ball movement).

They dimed more than 99% of teams in the league and Kobe was their assist leader.

And then they dominated the playoffs. How is that playing sub optimal basketball?

When it comes to Kobe you're like rrr3 vs Trump. Your partisanship in this regard is identical.

[Kblaze8855]

Increasing your teams ppg by 5 points because you got two better shots over the course of the game is literally the difference between the bad teams and good teams in the NBA.

Issue is….it isn’t 5 extra points. It’s just a different person shooting with an unknown outcome. Taking 2 misses from Kobe doesn’t just give the team two makes from Brian Cook.

[FultzNationRISE]

The 2009 Lakers went 65-17 with the 3rd best offense and 2nd best assist rank (ball movement).

And then they dominated the playoffs. How is that sub optimal basketball?

When it comes to Kobe you're like rrr3 vs Trump. Your partisanship in this regard is identical.

Rewatch the end to this game.



Durant drives and lays it up, then Kobe responds with a quick iso 3. Scowls for the cameras and marinates in his hero narrative in progress.

Westbrook comes down and takes an iso three, BRICK.

Kobe comes back, no passes, jumper, BRICK.

Thunder, Westbrook, BRICK.

Lakers, Pau misses, rebound out to Artest, has the audacity to shoot an open shot, misses, Kobe throws his arms up because he wanted the shot.

Thunder, Durant makes a nice move, one pass to Westbrook at the elbow, Westbrook BRICK.

Lakers, Kobe isos for the jumper, BRICK, Gasol offensive rebound, putback is good, Lakers win.


The Kobe-Westbrook shit show at the end was an embarrassment to basketball. But because these two teams had GREAT role player depth that year, people thought it was some kind of epic duel between all time great ballaz


Thats just how people like seeing the game. So be it.

[FultzNationRISE]

If you go back and watch the half time shows of the Lakers finals runs, EVEN AS THEY WERE WINNING, all the studio analysts were talking in real time about the Lakers making it harder on themselves, they should be dumping it into Gasol and Bynum down low and just riding the size advantage.

Magic, Chuck, Legler, Greg Anthony, whoever was doing analysis… they were all saying Kobe was actually making it harder for the Lakers than it had to be

[FultzNationRISE]

Issue is….it isn’t 5 extra points. It’s just a different person shooting with an unknown outcome. Taking 2 misses from Kobe doesn’t just give the team two makes from Brian Cook.

Thats true, but a good shot from a competent shooter (which most players on the court are) is better than a bad shot from a superstar.

So even a 1 or 2% increase in conversion efficiency… like, theres no down side. You dont get style points in basketball. So theres really no excuse for playing sub optimal. Just brushing it aside because “it doesnt make THAT much difference” doesnt make sense to me because theres no compensatory benefit. Youre just… playing sub optimal ball for no other reason than potential highlights. And it WILL cost you a few games over time.

Which again, if thats what the sport and the league and the business is about, thats fine. I enjoy a big clutch outburst as much as the next guy. But saying hero ball doesnt affect the outcome over time simply isnt true IMO.

[Kblaze8855]

Thats true, but a good shot from a competent shooter (which most players on the court are) is better than a bad shot from a superstar.

So even a 1 or 2% increase in conversion efficiency… like, theres no down side. You dont get style points in basketball. So theres really no excuse for playing sub optimal. Just brushing it aside because “it doesnt make THAT much difference” doesnt make sense to me because theres no compensatory benefit. Youre just… playing sub optimal ball for no other reason than potential highlights. And it WILL cost you a few games over time.

Which again, if thats what the sport and the league and the business is about, thats fine. I enjoy a big clutch outburst as much as the next guy. But saying hero ball doesnt affect the outcome over time simply isnt true IMO.

you’re speaking factually about things you only feel are true. There is absolutely no data to check to see what a role player shoots given a shot a star missed because you can’t isolate it from the other factors. You can’t just assume the percentage increases because you’re replacing a known miss with a potential make because to keep it fair you’d have to replace role player known misses with potential makes by the star and we’re back where we came from(except there are more non star misses to be offset by a potential star make).

all that matters in the end is your team scored more points than the other team. Who exactly misses each shot doesn’t matter. Who would have done what if the distribution were different is just based on assumption we could all change depending on the agenda we have.

in the end, it’s just us applying our unknowable assumptions in the manner best suiting our argument. I can talk about converting known Slava Medvedenko Misses to potential Kobe makes and you can do the other way.

plenty of Kobe misses were wide open good looks and plenty role player makes were tough. There is no way to know any of it. Just the final tally which tells us next to nothing. Even tracking the exact nature of the shots doesn’t tell us the path not taken.

Its all just feelings in the end.

[FultzNationRISE]

you’re speaking factually about things you only feel are true. There is absolutely no data to check to see what a role player shoots given a shot a star missed because you can’t isolate it from the other factors. You can’t just assume the percentage increases because you’re replacing a known miss with a potential make because to keep it fair you’d have to replace role player known misses with potential makes by the star and we’re back where we came from(except there are more non star misses to be offset by a potential star make).

all that matters in the end is your team scored more points than the other team. Who exactly misses each shot doesn’t matter. Who would have done what if the distribution were different is just based on assumption we could all change depending on the agenda we have.

in the end, it’s just us applying our unknowable assumptions in the manner best suiting our argument. I can talk about converting known Slava Medvedenko Misses to potential Kobe makes and you can do the other way.

plenty of Kobe misses were wide open good looks and plenty role player makes were tough. There is no way to know any of it. Just the final tally which tells us next to nothing. Even tracking the exact nature of the shots doesn’t tell us the path not taken.

Its all just feelings in the end.

Youre correct, however I believe they are reasonable assumptions based on what we do factually know about shooting percentages. Its true every heroball iso shot with 20 ticks left on the shotclock is not guaranteed to result in a wide open look as the alternative.

But theres still no reason to make the selfish play. It doesnt achieve anything. Theres no compensatory benefit to the team. Going for better looks will at least SOMETIMES result in getting better looks, and making them.

So altho we can’t prove the specifics of a hypothetical result, it is a reasonable assumption to make. More attempts to create good shots will result in more good shots. Good shots are converted more than iso heaves. Therefore, attempting to play the right way is highly likely generate more points overall.

[tpols]

Rewatch the end to this game.



Durant drives and lays it up, then Kobe responds with a quick iso 3. Scowls for the cameras and marinates in his hero narrative in progress.

Westbrook comes down and takes an iso three, BRICK.

Kobe comes back, no passes, jumper, BRICK.

Thunder, Westbrook, BRICK.

Lakers, Pau misses, rebound out to Artest, has the audacity to shoot an open shot, misses, Kobe throws his arms up because he wanted the shot.

Thunder, Durant makes a nice move, one pass to Westbrook at the elbow, Westbrook BRICK.

Lakers, Kobe isos for the jumper, BRICK, Gasol offensive rebound, putback is good, Lakers win.


The Kobe-Westbrook shit show at the end was an embarrassment to basketball. But because these two teams had GREAT role player depth that year, people thought it was some kind of epic duel between all time great ballaz


Thats just how people like seeing the game. So be it.

This is.... 1 game from a playoff run that isn't even from the year OP was referencing. Prime Kobe crunchtime stats 5 minutes left in the game score close +/- 5 points are extremely elite for his career. All you seem to be able to do is cherrypick < 1% of available data.


But again... you said Kobes style of play outside crunchtime was "suboptimal" in a year he led a 65 win team to a championship where they had a top offensive rank and led the league in assists and ball movement. With Kobe having by far the most points and assists contributing to said ranks.

How do you justify your position here?

[Kblaze8855]

Yes, converting every tough miss into an even unlikely make of a better shot result in more points long-term. But as I said, in total, the other players take and miss more shots. If I replaced all 25 shots the role players miss with Kobe even shooting 30% on them? His personal percentage nose dives but the team scores more points in total with no extra misses. Making them better. That admittedly stupid(but correct) example going both ways is why we can’t even go down that path.

it’s all just a matter of how you look at it. Considering the results he got it’s hard for me to say Kobe should’ve done something different. What should he have won instead of five? Eight?

[FultzNationRISE]

This is.... 1 game from a playoff run that isn't even from the year OP was referencing. Prime Kobe crunchtime stats 5 minutes left in the game score close +/- 5 points are extremely elite for his career. All you seem to be able to do is cherrypick < 1% of available data.


But again... you said Kobes style of play outside crunchtime was "suboptimal" in a year he led a 65 win team to a championship where they had a top offensive rank and led the league in assists and ball movement. With Kobe having by far the most points and assists contributing to said ranks.

How do you justify your position here?

Well I obviously dont remember all the games of that regular season, so maybe youre right and he was an exceptional team player during that particular sample size. I cant say he wasnt because I dont have any memory of those games to analyze.

However I do remember many specific playoff examples where he wasnt, and playoffs count for a lot in my book.

In 04 he literally cost his team a title because he tried to outshine Shaq (who was dominating) and shot his team straight out of the series. Everyone remembers that, there is no debate.

Theres the famous 6-24 example in Game 7 verse the C’s where he got bailed out by Ron Artest.

Theres the OKC game 6 I just posted where he tried to take every shot in the last 5 minutes. Bailed out by Gasol.

People dont wanna remember these examples, they wanna look at his five team championships, his buzzer beater vs the Suns in a series they lost, and create a narrative around Kobe that they enjoy celebrating.

Im not trying to tell anyone not to if thats how they like remembering him. I just dont see it that way and Im gonna stand by it if people wanna challenge me.

[FultzNationRISE]

Yes, converting every tough miss into an even unlikely make of a better shot result in more points long-term. But as I said, in total, the other players take and miss more shots. If I replaced all 25 shots the role players miss with Kobe even shooting 30% on them? His personal percentage nose dives but the team scores more points in total with no extra misses. Making them better. That admittedly stupid(but correct) example going both ways is why we can’t even go down that path.

it’s all just a matter of how you look at it. Considering the results he got it’s hard for me to say Kobe should’ve done something different. What should he have won instead of five? Eight?

Hero narratives in basketball are like psychic readings.

There are ways to finesse what youre saying such that it can come off pretty convincing, and a lot of people may end up convinced.

But there are some people who dont think whats being sold as happening is whats really happening.

And youre right, neither side can PROVE the other is wrong.

[sdot_thadon]

Kobe and Tmac were the 2 absolute best tough/bad shot makers I've ever seen with no peer. I think young guys should do this once they reach that certain level of skill but I have to wonder, if you don't come up from the bottom taking those shots can you ever become elite at making them? And also i see it as a double edged sword, you do want Kobe to take better looks because it may turn a few Ls into Ws, but do you really want anyone else taking those shots? I don't, so you take the good with the bad and hope it's one of those days he has it going and not a 10-30 game.

[Kblaze8855]

Well I obviously dont remember all the games of that regular season, so maybe youre right and he was an exceptional team player during that particular sample size. I cant say he wasnt because I dont have any memory of those games to analyze.

However I do remember many specific playoff examples where he wasnt, and playoffs count for a lot in my book.

In 04 he literally cost his team a title because he tried to outshine Shaq (who was dominating) and shot his team straight out of the series. Everyone remembers that, there is no debate.

Theres the famous 6-24 example in Game 7 verse the C’s where he got bailed out by Ron Artest.

Theres the OKC game 6 I just posted where he tried to take every shot in the last 5 minutes. Bailed out by Gasol.

People dont wanna remember these examples, they wanna look at his five team championships, his buzzer beater vs the Suns in a series they lost, and create a narrative around Kobe that they enjoy celebrating.

Im not trying to tell anyone not to if thats how they like remembering him. I just dont see it that way and Im gonna stand by it if people wanna challenge me.

you think people don’t remember he had 6 of 24 game or a bunch of other poor shooting ones on the Internet where people point such things out incessantly for decades at a time? People remember them they just don’t care. Everyone into downplaying the greatness of all these players be they Kobe or LeBron or Jordan, or anyone else consistently point out bad performances, and act like nobody acknowledges them. All of the haters are largely right in that but what they don’t accept is that people are justified in ignoring most bad performances and things that lead to losses because literally every single person since the 60s Celtic spends the extreme majority of their career losing. Great players are great because of the ups. The downs are just a part of life, and they will never get the spotlight shone on them the way people shine the light on success, because the down is the expected outcome.

you, nor any other hater will ever succeed in making a great players bad games be even close to as acknowledged as the great ones because try you might nobody gives a shit. Your legacy is pretty much entirely a list of your great accomplishments. You don’t see failures on the career summary, because failure is the expected outcome.

[tpols]

and playoffs count for a lot in my book.

The man has 4 rings performing with superstar impact.

4th most points scored in NBA playoff history only behind Lebron, Mj, and Kareem... and ahead of Shaq ironically.

What are you on bro?

[FultzNationRISE]

The man has 4 rings performing with superstar impact.

4th most points scored in NBA playoff history only behind Lebron, Mj, and Kareem... and ahead of Shaq ironically.

What are you on bro?

Im not saying he was a scrub dude

Im saying theres simply a difference in the SIZE of the difference you think he made and I think he made.

Thats all. Im not saying Kobe wasnt a great player.

Just that Kobe’s style of play and statistical production wasnt the enormous factor in those Laker teams’ success as other people may think. Thats my opinion.