Understanding an NBA player's defensive abilities when ranking them

[Street Hunger]

We all know that defense matters when ranking NBA players. But to what extent do most of us know how good a player actually is at playing defense?

Certain players that make all NBA defensive teams, we know about. Like centers that block lots of shots, and a handful of guards or forwards that are known to be good defenders.

But my guess is the vast majority of us fans don't really know how good the average NBA player is a defense. Unless they are great or unless they are terrible at it we sort of think of them all as okay at it.

I wonder what we can do to change that and get a little bit better at ranking their defensive abilities too.

[3ba11]

By locking down the Heat in the Finals, the Nuggets confirmed that good individual defenders aren't required because great team defense is based on chemistry and effort

And a great defender often needs great scoring help around him (which lowers the good defenders that can be acquired), while a great offensive player can carry the scoring load and therefore be surrounded by cheap defenders - so a great offensive player can actually yield a better defensive TEAM, since the GM doesn't need to find as much offense and can focus on finding cheap defenders

TLDR: individual defense is vastly overrated when comparing 2 players because a team doesn't need great individual defenders to play great team defense - effort and chemistry are the only things required as the Nuggets shows.. furthermore, a great offensive player doesn't need as much offensive help, so the GM can build a defensive team easier

[Kblaze8855]

We all know that defense matters when ranking NBA players. But to what extent do most of us know how good a player actually is at playing defense?

Certain players that make all NBA defensive teams, we know about. Like centers that block lots of shots, and a handful of guards or forwards that are known to be good defenders.

But my guess is the vast majority of us fans don't really know how good the average NBA player is a defense. Unless they are great or unless they are terrible at it we sort of think of them all as okay at it.

I wonder what we can do to change that and get a little bit better at ranking their defensive abilities too.

The problem you’re going to run into here and elsewhere Online is exactly what you see in the first reply. Somehow in the stupid never ending back-and-forth defense…..the thing almost every coach stresses more than anything…got caught up in endless agenda fights that make people who actually take themselves seriously argue against the entire idea that it matters.

people don’t behave like fans of the game anymore. They are fans of whoever their agenda requires them to support and years of back-and-forth arguments have made entire sections of the international fan base against certain aspects of the game they constantly find themselves arguing against the importance of because acknowledging it reduces the standing of the person their agenda is built around.

this nut in particular is Pro Jordan, who played incredible defense, but he has also taken the modern tactic of focusing on downplaying your guys teammates as a primary means of making him look good, and with Jordan‘s two most famous teammates both being all time defenders who didn’t look to score very much as a primary means of impacting the game, he has to rally people against the very idea that defense can make you great.

The number of people you can get to discuss the importance of individual skills and how to rank players with them without involving their ever present arguments that shape their takes is too small to make progress.

Defense is incredibly important and along with shooting is the main thing that gets players on the floor on high levels. There’s always been less interest in learning about those special at it because good rotations and shutting down a pick and roll don’t make highlights. They just make teams win.

Add to that the fact that “casuals” have all worked on offensive skills even if they grow up without people to play with? You can go shoot around. Work on handles. You can’t really work on defense by yourself. So the casual fans who never played organized ball don’t even know where to begin an evaluation. People have the most understanding of skills they can acquire, largely by themselves and things they can go simulate. We can all go throw a football to get an idea of how ridiculous it is. Some people can throw 150 yards and have it land right where it leads to. But you can’t go out by yourself and work on shutting down a wide receiver. You need at least two people and then somebody to throw the ball.

Everyone has thrown a ball so we’re all amazed by great ball throwers. Very few have run serious coverage drills so there’s less appreciation for those things.

Fans will never get as excited about something that feels foreign to them and being able to quarterback a group of five to defend an NBA team and step in and do your part individually is so far outside the realm of what most fans will ever experience they don’t know how to value it. We know how to value a three. We have all taken a bunch. We understand it’s hard.

Getting people to work on understanding defense goes against the nature of sports fans and then gets mixed into narratives and agendas.

people who love Defense are probably on their own forever. I get that it would be nice to do something about it. I just don’t know that there’s anything we can do.

[Jasper]

By locking down the Heat in the Finals, the Nuggets confirmed that good individual defenders aren't required because great team defense is based on chemistry and effort

And a great defender often needs great scoring help around him (which lowers the good defenders that can be acquired), while a great offensive player can carry the scoring load and therefore be surrounded by cheap defenders - so a great offensive player can actually yield a better defensive TEAM, since the GM doesn't need to find as much offense and can focus on finding cheap defenders

TLDR: individual defense is vastly overrated when comparing 2 players because a team doesn't need great individual defenders to play great team defense - effort and chemistry are the only things required as the Nuggets shows.. furthermore, a great offensive player doesn't need as much offensive help, so the GM can build a defensive team easier

I get the jest of your argument and it is a good one.
But the NBA isn't what it used to be 20 years ago to his day.
Most teams need at least 3 if not 4 steady offensive players.
One player can play exceptional defense , and then the rest of the players follow his lead as defenders.
*Perfect example is Jrue Holiday of the Bucks.
great team defense is probably harder than individual defense because you have to cover other spaces.

OP- remember bball is based on offense and will always be defined as such.

[3ba11]

I get the jest of your argument and it is a good one.
But the NBA isn't what it used to be 20 years ago to his day.
Most teams need at least 3 if not 4 steady offensive players.
One player can play exceptional defense , and then the rest of the players follow his lead as defenders.
*Perfect example is Jrue Holiday of the Bucks.
great team defense is probably harder than individual defense because you have to cover other spaces.

OP- remember bball is based on offense and will always be defined as such.

agreed - defense is impossible in today's game so it comes down to the team with the best offense, such as the Nuggets, who had zero great defenders but still locked down the Heat (while the #1 defense Celtics let the Heat go off)

And in 1988, the Bulls had 1 great defender (dpoy), which yielded the #3 defense that year.. Otoh, Pippen was a baby in 1988 and needed a ton of development - so MJ was the great defender that everyone followed.. btw, there was no guarantee that Pippen would've developed anywhere else because he wouldn't get playing time on the Lakers or Celtics and wouldn't develop alongside Magic's ball-domination.

[Baller234]

Defense usually comes down to effort and there are plenty of ways we can measure effort. If a player has a lot of steals, that indicates effort. If a player has a lot of blocks, that indicates effort.

Therefore, the difference between a good defensive player and a bad defensive player is effort. If you want to know what separates a good defensive player and a GREAT defensive player, I would say a combination of both effort and ability. Bill Cartwright played good defense because playing good defense was required if you wanted a spot on the Bulls, but Cartwright was also slower than my grandma. Horace Grant on the other hand was long, athletic and quick on his feet.

Also, it's not just about individual effort, but also team effort. It's rare you see a great defensive player surrounded by four bums because a great defensive player will naturally inspire their teammates to play better defense, and we know which teams play good defense based on how many points they hold their opponents to.