How true is this - "The player that controls the rebound, controls the game"

**tpols** · 08-30-2023, 01:32 PM

If you're rooting against a team and they have an elite offensive rebounder it's annoying as ****. Elite offensive rebounders make defenses work twice as hard and demoralize a team because they think they got a stop and now they have to do it all over again but even worse since the chaos of it all puts the defense out of position. Tristan Thompson used to piss me off.

**ShawkFactory** · 08-30-2023, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by tpols

If you're rooting against a team and they have an elite offensive rebounder it's annoying as ****. Elite offensive rebounders make defenses work twice as hard and demoralize a team because they think they got a stop and now they have to do it all over again. Tristan Thompson used to piss me off.

Yep. This is why Rodman got FMVP consideration in 96. I think he averaged like 8 OREBs a game which is absolutely nuts for a finals series. He legit won them 2 games.

I watched game 2 of the series a couple years ago and Jordan was great of course but Rodman was the pretty clear MVP of that game. The Bulls won by 4 and he had 11 offensive rebounds (20 total).

It's not just the number 11 though. They got increasingly more back-breaking and you could feel it.

**tpols** · 08-30-2023, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by ShawkFactory

Yep. This is why Rodman got FMVP consideration in 96. I think he averaged like 8 OREBs a game which is absolutely nuts for a finals series. He legit won them 2 games.

I watched game 2 of the series a couple years ago and Jordan was great of course but Rodman was the pretty clear MVP of that game. The Bulls won by 4 and he had 11 offensive rebounds (20 total).

It's not just the number 11 though. They got increasingly more back-breaking and you could feel it.

Yup. Momentum is powerful. Same thing can be said of a shotmaker who is defended perfectly and still makes the shot. Almost makes the defense give up holistically.

**3ba11** · 08-30-2023, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by ShawkFactory

I watched game 2 of the series a couple years ago and Jordan was great of course but Rodman was the pretty clear MVP of that game. The Bulls won by 4 and he had 11 offensive rebounds (20 total).

The only constant for the Bulls' 6 titles was MJ's goat scoring, goat clutch and carrying of the scoring load more than anyone ever has (defeating max defensive attention)

Everything else changed for each title such as:

The Bulls won with Pippen playing decent in 91' or 92', but they also won with him playing like dogshit in 93' or 96-98.. They won with Rodman getting 16 rebounds during the 96' Playoffs, but they also won with him getting 8 during the 97' Playoffs (Rodman's horrible rebounding in 97' forced MJ to co-lead the rebounds on that run).. They also 3-peated with Horace getting 8 or 9 rebounds (not even double-figures).

So the Bulls could win any way they needed, as long as they had MJ's scoring, clutch, and "all eyes on me" defensive coverage - these were the only constant things that they always needed for all 6 titles - the rebounding was clearly a tertiary factor

Originally Posted by ShawkFactory

I watched game 2 of the series a couple years ago and Jordan was great of course but Rodman was the pretty clear MVP of that game. The Bulls won by 4 and he had 11 offensive rebounds (20 total).

It's easier to win playing 5 on 5 offensively than playing 4 on 5 and hoping you can make up for it with offensive rebounds - MJ was simply great enough to have great team offenses and win IN SPITE of rodman's ineptitude on offense.

Btw, the Bulls were up 11 heading into the 4th of Game 2 because Jordan had scored 30% of the team's points - he added 6 more in the 4th as the Sonics were surging - and the only reason the Bulls had an advantage on the offensive glass was because of all the double-teaming on Jordan - double-teams decimate a team's defensive rebounding - this is common knowledge and the announcers stated this many times during the series and coaches say this all the time just in general.. it's common knowledge, so stop with the ignorance about basketball:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujTHZlnPcso&t=01h00m53s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Xz4K42gXM&t=03m12s

**3ba11** · 08-30-2023, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by 3ba11

The only constant for the Bulls' 6 titles was MJ's goat scoring, goat clutch and carrying of the scoring load more than anyone ever has (defeating max defensive attention)

Everything else changed for each title such as:

The Bulls won with Pippen playing decent in 91' or 92', but they also won with him playing like dogshit in 93' or 96-98.. They won with Rodman getting 16 rebounds during the 96' Playoffs, but they also won with him getting 8 during the 97' Playoffs (Rodman's horrible rebounding in 97' forced MJ to co-lead the rebounds on that run).. They also 3-peated with Horace getting 8 or 9 rebounds (not even double-figures).

So the Bulls could win any way they needed, as long as they had MJ's scoring, clutch, and "all eyes on me" defensive coverage - these were the only constant things that they always needed for all 6 titles - the rebounding was clearly a tertiary factor

It's easier to win playing 5 on 5 offensively than playing 4 on 5 and hoping you can make up for it with offensive rebounds - MJ was simply great enough to have great team offenses and win IN SPITE of rodman's ineptitude on offense.

Btw, the Bulls were up 11 heading into the 4th of Game 2 because Jordan had scored 30% of the team's points - he added 6 more in the 4th as the Sonics were surging - and the only reason the Bulls had an advantage on the offensive glass was because of all the double-teaming on Jordan - double-teams decimate a team's defensive rebounding - this is common knowledge and the announcers stated this many times during the series and coaches say this all the time just in general.. it's common knowledge, so stop with the ignorance about basketball:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujTHZlnPcso&t=01h00m53s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Xz4K42gXM&t=03m12s

crickets from Shawk on this one - he isn't like Peja and knows when he's been shown the truth

**ShawkFactory** · 08-30-2023, 05:37 PM

"Jordan won in many ways so it didn't matter what any teammate did in any given time".

Okay...

It's not really relevant to what I said, nor this thread in general. So I don't really care the rebut it

I bet you miss Peja.

**3ba11** · 08-30-2023, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by ShawkFactory

"Jordan won in many ways so it didn't matter what any teammate did in any given time".

Okay...

It's not really relevant to what I said, nor this thread in general. So I don't really care the rebut it

I bet you miss Peja.

It's relevant because some players need teammates to average 20 with good efficiency in the Finals to win, or they need teammates to be "closers" in the Finals and hit all the big shots or lead the clutch-time stats...

So the fact that Jordan could win the Finals in any fashion - aka normal offensive rebounding or great offensive rebounding; teammates closing or MJ closing; horrible scoring & efficiency from a sidekick or normal scoring & efficiency

It's a big difference

And btw I prefer honest debating, which isn't Peja.. otoh, the times that you can't respond, you simply ignore the point, such as the point about Rodman's offensive rebounding being a direct reflection of the double-teaming on MJ, according to everyone and bball 101.. This was an irrefutable point and included receipts, so you left it alone and conceded that Rodman's performance was overrated and infact carried by guys that get doubled a lot like MJ or peak Robinson - basically all of Rodman's highest offensive rebounding years were these older years alongside all-time producers that commanded doubles all the time

**DarkSephiroth** · 08-31-2023, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by 3ba11

Rodman averaged 3/8 for the 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter in the 98' Playoffs, so he didn't contribute in 97' or 98'.. The bulls won in spite of him and had #1 offenses despite playing 4 on 5 with Rodman (and Pippen averaging 17 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs).

The Bulls already 3-peated with a 12/9 role player at PF (Horace), so a great player wasn't needed to play the rebounding or PF role.

Ultimately, MJ had 3 teammates average 7+ rebounds, while Lebron had Zydrunas, Gooden, Varejao, Shaq, Jamison, Wallace, Haslem, Birdman, Bosh, Love, Mosgov, Tristan, AD, McGee and many more.. And Lebron had an even greater advantage in rim protection

Rodman contributed greatly in the '98 playoffs, he played 34.4 MPG and averaged 11.8 Rebounds with 4.7 Offensive Boards. He did have a tough time in the finals against Malone, but without Rodman defending the Bulls would have been torched by the Mailman.

Young Horace Grant was also an excellent player. 6'10, tough, strong, athletic, with a good motor and great defense. Both Horace Grant and Rodman were pivotal to the Bulls' success.

Having a good team doesn't take away from Jordan's greatness, I don't see a reason to downplay his teammates to that level. Jordan is likely the GOAT, but nobody wins championships without a good team. It's a team sport, and all the pieces of the puzzle have to fit in for success. No one player can guard the perimeter, take care of the interior, get all the rebounds, and score all the points. Having good teammates to do the dirty work is integral for success, and Jordan had solid teammates who played their roles well. Actually, I believe the only team to ever win a championship without another player who was ever an all-star was Hakeem in '94. Even then, his teammates were excellent role players who hit some big shots when needed.

**3ba11** · 08-31-2023, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by DarkSephiroth

Rodman contributed greatly in the '98 playoffs, he played 34.4 MPG and averaged 11.8 Rebounds with 4.7 Offensive Boards. He did have a tough time in the finals against Malone, but without Rodman defending the Bulls would have been torched by the Mailman.

Young Horace Grant was also an excellent player. 6'10, tough, strong, athletic, with a good motor and great defense. Both Horace Grant and Rodman were pivotal to the Bulls' success.

Having a good team doesn't take away from Jordan's greatness, I don't see a reason to downplay his teammates to that level. Jordan is likely the GOAT, but nobody wins championships without a good team. It's a team sport, and all the pieces of the puzzle have to fit in for success. No one player can guard the perimeter, take care of the interior, get all the rebounds, and score all the points. Having good teammates to do the dirty work is integral for success, and Jordan had solid teammates who played their roles well. Actually, I believe the only team to ever win a championship without another player who was ever an all-star was Hakeem in '94. Even then, his teammates were excellent role players who hit some big shots when needed.

Old Rodman and Horace were ordinary role players that every team had - they didn't give the Bulls a "good" or "stacked" cast because every 3rd option on contenders were All-NBA (Schrempf, Mashburn, Mason) or multiple-time all-stars (Nance, Aguirre, Laimbeer, Majerle).. The reality is that other teams had SCORERS at 3rd and 4th option and role players did the rebounding, whereas the Bulls' 3rd best player was just a defender/banger type that would be 5th option on other teams. It's clean as day - the Bulls had thin casts compared to the majority of playoff opponents outside the 1st Round. this is obvious fact.. Horace got torched by opposing 3rd options

**Hey Yo** · 08-31-2023, 12:18 PM

Every team from 96-98 had a player who led the league in rebounding???

3ball shook AF.

**3ba11** · 08-31-2023, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Hey Yo

Every team from 96-98 had a player who led the league in rebounding???

3ball shook AF.

Andre Drummond and tons of scrubs led the league in rebounding - it means nothing. And yes- every team had a banger type like Horace or Rodman but they were 5th and 6th option not 3rd option

every 3rd option on contenders were All-NBA (Schrempf, Mashburn, Mason) or multiple-time all-stars (Nance, Aguirre, Laimbeer, Majerle).. So other teams had SCORERS at 3rd and 4th option (while role players did the rebounding), whereas the Bulls' had defender/banger type at 3rd option that would be 5th option on other teams

**ILLsmak** · 09-01-2023, 05:13 AM

Yo a few years ago I actually read that stuff. That's worth reading to everyone. There are def some memes and some funny ways of putting things, but it's a pretty solid, easy read. Sad, in a lot of ways, after the dudes get over fighting each other. It's realistic in terms of plot. Doesn't have a fairy tale ending.

As for that statement, it's absolutely true. Look at team usa. Look at good college teams vs mid majors. The one constant is they always slaughter them on the boards. The other side is that other than offensive boards, the defensive boards mean a lot more... as in you are stopping them/they are missing shots. So, some of it is due to factors that precede the rebound. Still, you gotta get the ball. That's goal number 1.

You can control the game and still lose, too. But yeah, if you are a box scorer reader like I am... a seasoned vet, eyyy... you def check reb difference in blow outs. You will generally find that one time smashed the other on the boards. Even in this very 3 heavy NBA, that holds true.

-Smak

**ILLsmak** · 09-01-2023, 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by Hey Yo

According to 3ball..... old Rodman leading the league in rebounding in 97 and 98 just goes to show how bad the state of the league was at that time.

lol, the ball would just bounce out of bounds on most plays.

-Smak

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