Jokic is starting his GOAT run now

[j3lademaster]

The reason Jordan is so highly regarded is because he brought 6 rings to a nothing franchise. Not just 6, but with his individual dominance up until that point he was being compared to Bird and Magic after his first championship and had goat talks in 92/93. What makes Jokic so different that he needs 5 to even enter top 5 talks? He brought a title to a historically bad franchise, all his objective(so hateproof) metrics are topping all time levels- even defensive metrics, and he’s proving himself to be a top 5 if not goat court mapper of all time. He never even had a great squad. How many teams wanted Aaron Gordon? KCP was a scapegoat in LA. Murray is good, but he isn’t some all time sidekick. There’s nothing that makes him better than, say, Maxey if we compare them side by side. Jokic makes these guys all look like winners. He doesn’t have a Kobe, Pippen, McHale, KAJ etc… in a league where teams are more stacked than ever. If he wins this year in his usual fashion he is top 10 and it’s not ridiculous to put him top 5 if he wins 3.

[StrongLurk]

The reason Jordan is so highly regarded is because he brought 6 rings to a nothing franchise. Not just 6, but with his individual dominance up until that point he was being compared to Bird and Magic after his first championship and had goat talks in 92/93. What makes Jokic so different that he needs 5 to even enter top 5 talks? He brought a title to a historically bad franchise, all his objective(so hateproof) metrics are topping all time levels- even defensive metrics, and he’s proving himself to be a top 5 if not goat court mapper of all time. He never even had a great squad. How many teams wanted Aaron Gordon? KCP was a scapegoat in LA. Murray is good, but he isn’t some all time sidekick. There’s nothing that makes him better than, say, Maxey if we compare them side by side. Jokic makes these guys all look like winners. He doesn’t have a Kobe, Pippen, McHale, KAJ etc… in a league where teams are more stacked than ever. If he wins this year in his usual fashion he is top 10 and it’s not ridiculous to put him top 5 if he wins 3.

Since 1999 - Top MVPs/FMVPS (must have at least one of each).

Tier 1: Lebron (8)
Tier 2: Duncan (5)
Tier 3: Shaq (4)
Tier 4: Kobe (3), Curry (3), Durant (3), Giannis (3), Jokic (3).
Tier 5: Dirk (2)

Hopefully this helps put Jokic in some perspective. Dude is 29 years old and has a great chance of leaping to tier 2 with Duncan if he wins MVP/FMVP this year. Keep in mind Jokic is legit at the top of all-time career advanced stats (ahead of Lebron/MJ).

(Regular season) - Among superstar/1st options, Jokic is number 1 all time in PER, number 1 in True Shooting %, number 1 in Offensive Rating, number 1 in Win Share/48, and number 1 in Box Score Plus-Minus.

(Playoffs)- Among superstar/1st options, Jokic is number 1 all time in PER, number 4 in TS%, number 1 in Offensive Rating, number 3 in Win Share/48, and number 2 in Box Score Plus-Minus.

[BarberSchool]

Since 1999 - Top MVPs/FMVPS (must have at least one of each).

Tier 1: Lebron (8)
Tier 2: Duncan (5)
Tier 3: Shaq (4)
Tier 4: Kobe (3), Curry (3), Durant (3), Giannis (3), Jokic (3).
Tier 5: Dirk (2)

Hopefully this helps put Jokic in some perspective. Dude is 29 years old and has a great chance of leaping to tier 2 with Duncan if he wins MVP/FMVP this year. Keep in mind Jokic is legit at the top of all-time career advanced stats (ahead of Lebron/MJ).

(Regular season) - Among superstar/1st options, Jokic is number 1 all time in PER, number 1 in True Shooting %, number 1 in Offensive Rating, number 1 in Win Share/48, and number 1 in Box Score Plus-Minus.

(Playoffs)- Among superstar/1st options, Jokic is number 1 all time in PER, number 4 in TS%, number 1 in Offensive Rating, number 3 in Win Share/48, and number 2 in Box Score Plus-Minus.

This is a very detail oriented, well presented post, in support of Jokic’s proposed run. But one thing …. Very very few people who played the game at a high level would ever consider ranking Duncan ahead of Shaq on any all time list. Shaq’s individual dominance was something Duncan did not even approach. As is the spectacle of his dominance, and his entertainment value, for the game growing globally during his prime.

It’s why Bird/Magic are ranked higher than they should be stat-wise as well, because their rivalry and decade of excellence made the game much much more popular amongst the public. Same with Jordan, his blatant individual talent gap was plain to see for everyone, even those who never played the game at any level. This type of universal popularity of both his own championships, and the DREAM TEAM (of which Barkley still doesn’t get enough recognition) helped players like Shaq & Kobe have a larger more international audience … and will also help many more to come …

…but Duncan, Jokic, and Dirk don’t have this same type of appeal/personality/aura, and while that is not a major knock against their greatness to people who know the game inside and out, and who appreciate less entertaining, less gripping, less spectacular types of statistical or strategic dominance… I think it counts for something, in addition to comparing pace and defensive changes per era.

Jokic would be great in any era, but if he played in the 90’s or 00’s, his advanced stats would slide down some, and would not bolster such an argument the same way, as the fortunate era he finds himself in now. Jokic is the type of talent that requires many other moving pieces to amplify his own abilities. On his own, without such cooperation and specialization, he would not have the same all-time statistical achievement.

That contrasts with players who can achieve such feats without the same level of moving pieces around them magnifying and amplifying their own abilities. Diverging arguments can evolve from that. Saying that Bird could do both, but that Magic and Jokic needed the mobile teammates to amplify their own talents, for instance.

[StrongLurk]

This is a very detail oriented, well presented post, in support of Jokic’s proposed run. But one thing …. Very very few people who played the game at a high level would ever consider ranking Duncan ahead of Shaq on any all time list. Shaq’s individual dominance was something Duncan did not even approach. As is the spectacle of his dominance, and his entertainment value, for the game growing globally during his prime. It’s why Bird/Magic are ranked higher than they should be stat-wise as well, because their rivalry and decade of excellence made the game much much more popular amongst the public. Same with Jordan, his blatant individual talent gap was plain to see for everyone, even those who never played the game at any level. This type of universal popularity helped players like Shaq & Kobe have a larger more international audience … and will also help many more to come … but Duncan, Jokic, and Dirk don’t have this same type of appeal/personality/aura, and while that is not a major knock against their greatness to people who know the game inside and out, and who appreciate less entertaining, less gripping, less spectacular types of statistical or strategic dominance… I think it counts for something, in addition to comparing pace and defensive changes per era. Jokic would be great in any era, but if he played in the 90’s or 00’s, his advanced stats would slide down some, and would not bolster such an argument the same way, as the fortunate era he finds himself in now.

This is an interesting post because I have always considered Shaq to be underrated. Most top ten lists I've seen over the past few years have him 9 or 10 for some reason...I actually would take Shaq and Duncan over both Magic and Bird.

Ultimately I can hype Jok as much as I want, but as always, the proof will be in the results.

[BarberSchool]

This is an interesting post because I have always considered Shaq to be underrated. Most top ten lists I've seen over the past few years have him 9 or 10 for some reason...I actually would take Shaq and Duncan over both Magic and Bird.

Ultimately I can hype Jok as much as I want, but as always, the proof will be in the results.

The rightful knock against Shaq, is that his skill set was very very limited, he could be punished & embarrassed at the free throw line, and that the league tolerated alot of offensive fouls from him. But no one can deny his plain to see physical dominance and gigantic entertainment value, and likability (as a player), he’s not nearly as likable as a commentator lol

[tpols]

The reason Jordan is so highly regarded is because he brought 6 rings to a nothing franchise. Not just 6, but with his individual dominance up until that point he was being compared to Bird and Magic after his first championship and had goat talks in 92/93. What makes Jokic so different that he needs 5 to even enter top 5 talks? He brought a title to a historically bad franchise, all his objective(so hateproof) metrics are topping all time levels- even defensive metrics, and he’s proving himself to be a top 5 if not goat court mapper of all time. He never even had a great squad. How many teams wanted Aaron Gordon? KCP was a scapegoat in LA. Murray is good, but he isn’t some all time sidekick. There’s nothing that makes him better than, say, Maxey if we compare them side by side. Jokic makes these guys all look like winners. He doesn’t have a Kobe, Pippen, McHale, KAJ etc… in a league where teams are more stacked than ever. If he wins this year in his usual fashion he is top 10 and it’s not ridiculous to put him top 5 if he wins 3.

A lot of teammates get overrated next to all time great players but I don't know if Jamal Murray is one of them at this point. His WCF and overall playoff run last year was better than anything Pippen ever produced in a playoff run.

[StrongLurk]

14 more wins go to for GOAT Jokic.

First 2 playoff games - 30/16/9 with 2 steals on 68.7 TS%

[John8204]

You shouldn't rely on championships to this great an extent to rank players.

Greatness really is determined based on how you distinguish yourself from your contemporaries...

With that said 2 rings at his mid-career point he shouldn't be ranked in the top 40 let alone top 10-15.

We hype up contemporary players way to much

Pts - 14,139
Rb - 7,249
As - 4,667

This is a very good stat line...Luka is going to pass Joker in assists next year and points in maybe two years

[StrongLurk]

Greatness really is determined based on how you distinguish yourself from your contemporaries...

With that said 2 rings at his mid-career point he shouldn't be ranked in the top 40 let alone top 10-15.

We hype up contemporary players way to much

Pts - 14,139
Rb - 7,249
As - 4,667

This is a very good stat line...Luka is going to pass Joker in assists next year and points in maybe two years

You gotta troll better than this.

[StrongLurk]

Another W for Jokic, 24/15/9 on 74.6 TS%.

13 W's to go.

[SouBeachTalents]

Greatness really is determined based on how you distinguish yourself from your contemporaries...

With that said 2 rings at his mid-career point he shouldn't be ranked in the top 40 let alone top 10-15.

We hype up contemporary players way to much

Pts - 14,139
Rb - 7,249
As - 4,667

This is a very good stat line...Luka is going to pass Joker in assists next year and points in maybe two years

I admit you do an excellent deadpan delivery, but your trolling is slipping of late. You need to make it more believable going forward.

[RogueBorg]

Lebron's getting sent to retirement not being able to beat Jokic.

[Hoopexpert]

This guy is STILL so underrated by everyone.

[ImKobe]

Crazy how some random 2nd round pick from Serbia is on pace to be a top 10 GOAT after this season if he pulls off another championship.

[Manny98]

He probably moves into my top 5 all time if he wins this year what he's doing is unbelievable

He's arguably playing at a higher level than both peak LeBron and MJ