I’m starting to wonder what modern fans consider good help.

[warriorfan]

I’d say the biggest difference was being the best defense in the league last year and 17th this year while being maybe the worst road team to ever make the playoffs was a pretty significant difference. Poole is part of the first problem obviously but I don’t know about the second.

Wiggins being out so long was certainly a factor in those numbers though.

In a lot of them really.

And reading some stats I’m starting to see another factor for all 3 of these guys and some others.

Tobias averages 19/7 without Embiid this year and 22/7 previously. Poole put up 26 a game without Steph this year. Dlo more productive with no Lebron. Which isn’t to say any of those players hurt the other guy…it’s to say….I wonder how much modern load management and teams sitting stars longer than needed impact our idea of what a guy is supposed to do when the whole team plays.

Wiggins was out like half the year I think and Steph for two long runs that jacked up Pooles averages. He never would’ve been scoring so much to raise his averages. If both those guys played the whole season. Klay missed 50 games last year too. Harris has been playing with guys like Embiid and Harden who just come up missing all the time.

I wonder what the statistical impact is of going from being expected to score more in regular season games with stars being rested to everyone playing if they can all back at once. And in the playoffs when things aren’t going well, stars force the issue even more. I wonder what the normal numbers look like for third and fourth best players in playoff losses shot attempt wise. The stars go shoot 30 times. Coaches find a lineup that works for a situation so you might play 45 minutes or 15. Poole for one played 10 minutes last game. If his shot isn’t falling, his defense is too bad for him to be on the floor. Playoff numbers are wild.

i’ll probably forget by then but this off-season I intend to do a deep dive. Just for my own sake. The brief look I did yesterday showed me a whole lot of good third and fourth options with these 8 to 12 point a game 30% shooting series losses and nobody seems to care. The more I think about it. Part of it has to be the offensive explosion. You don’t really have to be a top three option on your team to score a lot anymore and maybe that’s the whole problem with my perspective.

defense as a team slipped but poole’s playoff PER was half of what it was in the playoffs last year…

his TS dropped 20 percent

is it okay to call that out?

[Kblaze8855]

I didn’t say not to say anything. I said I’m wondering how far down the list of best players are we expecting a lot from these days and that it seems to be further than usual. Duncan Robinson is another one. A podcast I listen to was discussing if he was a coward. I’m just thinking….what is Duncan Robinson supposed to be doing exactly? He’s overpaid no doubt which gets us back to pay vs expectations but….Duncan Robinson? We putting it all on a guy playing 15-20 minutes a night?

I just feel like guys who historically wouldn’t be expected to have outcomes blamed on them get a lot more than they used to. Could be a social/sports media thing. There wasn’t as much coverage of anything back then. People have to fill a lot more air time so there are deeper dives I suppose.

[Kblaze8855]

That probably is it really. I never heard about all star Danny Ainge having a 10 on 31% or whatever series playing 40 minutes because there probably wasn’t time to get into it and there was no widespread internet. Maybe I just didn’t have access to the pissed off Boston radio.

[warriorfan]

They were all over it for sure. Boston sports radio has always been pretty wild. But they are different to say the least.

[Kblaze8855]

He played 47 minutes without making a shot in game 5 then went 1 of 11 in game six as they got eliminated. He probably didn’t turn on the radio for a couple weeks. They traded him middle of the next season. Funny enough it came out later that he was pressuring Red back then to trade Bird and Mchale. Imagine the balls needed to make one shot over two games as an all-star playing massive minutes then tell your boss to trade bird and Mchale.

[Nb1]

No matter how good or bad a player is, you should expect them to generally perform somewhere close to their baseline. Everyone will have a bad game now and then, but if they blow an entire series like Poole did, then they deserve criticism - regardless if they're the first or fifth best player on the team. Nobody was expecting Poole to average 30 in that series. They were just expecting him to play in the ballpark of his averages.

He wasn’t playing high minutes, but he did have a game last series where he was their best shooter and hitting everythinh but the last shot and he’s their 6th option. Dude was 6/11 from 3, who else have a guy like that on the bench?

[highwhey]

if they show up on time and sober, they're already considered good help by construction industry standards.

[Goldrush25]

The point is…how far down the roster can you go before players are no longer expected to consistently perform at a high level.

When Toni Kukoc puts up 7ppg on 32 percent shooting in a series it wasn’t really known or cared about. He’s the 4th best player.

But these days a Tobias Harris or a Dlo can give you 15 and we are wondering when they’re gonna step up.

Go a little earlier and teams were scoring 110ish like modern teams you still weren’t generally able to depend on a 4th or 5h guy giving you much production.

Kinda has me wondering if a greater percentage of modern points are scored by the top guys. Maybe the teams are more top heavy. It just feels weird when fans expect guys who aren’t even the second or third best player to be productive all the time.

Really takes 4 guys doing 18+ a game to be decent help on offense?

How do I hear guys on tv talking about Tobias Harris like a teams 4th option is supposed to always score a lot?

Season averages don’t translate one to one to playoffs for a lot of reasons. Stars forcing the issue taking more shots. Tighter lineups. Better prep. Vastly different minutes at times. The fact that season averages include runs with stars missing or lineups not being played in the playoffs.

It’s rarely gonna mirror the regular season but it really feels like fans want guys 4-5 down the list to be giving them 20 all the time.

I’m just wondering what people watch to think that’s to be expected. How many people realistically play statistically on a high level at the same time?

Is nobody allowed to be Kukoc anymore?

Doesn't that depend on the skills of the top guys? Is the top guy someone that gets people involved, or is he a KD type where the offense is about getting him the best shot?

A good role player is someone that compliments whatever the top guy does. Someone like KD or Steph needs defensive stoppers on the other end. Would an extra shooter really maximize GSW? They were best when they had a defensive stopper like Iggy that could limit the top opposing player. Someone like Lebron needs shooters. The best role players need to be able to do the work that the top guys can't do.

I don't think you can simplify it to a particular type of player, it's about fit for what that team needs from them, what gaps need to be filled.

[Charlie Sheen]

Roster turnover. The top 5-6 guys on a team weren't shuffled around as frequently as they are in today's league.

When a substitute becomes more available, people are going to be more critical of everything.