Will Jokic surpass Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan?

[BarberSchool]

No.

Unless either something drastic changes with Jokic’s fitness/athleticism, which will allow him to become great defensively.

…. or unless Jokic wins 4-5 chips & sustains his current level of insane efficiency & productivity, then it can be a conversation, but not “better/surpassed”.

The other 3 are intimidating defensive forces, Jokic is a very very poor rim defender, despite getting a good amount of steals for a center, due to quick hands and great predictive positioning.

You’re wrong about Bird not being a great defender. He was, no question. And a great rebounder but didn’t have to do it as much since he had parish and mchale. Bird’s shoulders and biceps were unimpressive, but he almost always had stronger forearms/wrists and especially HANDS than his opponent, and ripped so many steals from huge 80’s forwards and 80’s centers. He led the entire damn league in steals more than once IIRC. Blocked some Dr. J dunks. Dude was slow and not known for dunking hardly ever after 86, but his defense on forwards and bigs, and his weakside passing lane steals as well, were all really great.

Jokic is a far worse athlete than Bird was. And he’s less mean/spiteful/angry/chip-on-his-shoulder. Nobody bested Bird in those departments. Maybe the entire Detroit Pistons or Knicks squads, but not an individual.

All that said, I’m not a Jokic hater. I don’t find his game aesthetically pleasing in the traditional sense, but he’s extremely fun to watch, and I respect how insanely efficient, intelligent, selfless he is. His predictive offensive intelligence is tops among all bigs in the league and it’s not close. Will probably be the best big ever in regards to predictive intelligence, predictive judgement, TOUCH, and the passing that comes from his predictive intelligence and predictive judgement. He has a very real chance to be the best offensive big ever. But the others mentioned were all time defensive game changers.

If you pick some out, don’t pick from shortly after Cartwright changed Akeem’s name with that elbow to Hakeem. Or fat toe problem Shaq. And a boring low scoring Duncan game.

What I’m saying is that, while Jokic has a real chance to be the goat offensive center and already is the goat passing center, he cannot, with any amount of hard work, come close to the physical domination of Shaq, or the defensive game changing abilities of any of the 3. The best he can do is be the most gifted offensive “team first” center ever, and be the goat efficiency/turnover-to-assist/consistent center ever and “dominant in results but but physically dominant in the traditional sense”. Not hating, just pointing out his limitations and how that limits his alltime ranking as a two way / overall / complete player/center.

If prime Bird and prime Jokic did every single track and field Olympic event, Bird would be victorious. Prime Bird was a significantly better athlete than Jokic.

But yes, Jokic predictive intelligence and predictive judgement are on par with Birds’

So is his touch on runners and off balance shots.

But Bird also is significantly more of a killer than Jokic. No single individual superstar ever matched Bird when it came to spite/meanness/chip-on-shoulder. Ever. Not even Kobe or the GOAT, Mike.

I have long said that Jokic is Bird’s brain and hands in a slightly smaller version of Marc Gasol’s body.

Also, in another thread, I repeatedly stated that Jokic lacks the physical nature, to simply “completely take over a game” in a solo/iso sense. His domination is not his own, but his ability to read and predict, and utilize all his teammates movement around him. By himself, in a strict iso post-up, against a defender longer than himself; he cannot simply take over and go on huge runs by himself.

And as I stated above in the quotes, he cannot physically dominate a game on the defensive side.

What Denver former head of basketball operation Tim Connelly built in Minnesnowta; is the blueprint on how to stop what Denver excels at.

[Carbine]

^ It's easy to say this NOW, after two poor games but doesn't Jokic have the best PPP on isolation post ups in the league?

He averaged 30 ppg on a championship run with the highest TS percentage ever for a 30ppg scorer.... His ability to take over games shouldn't be in question.

[SouBeachTalents]

The overreactions to these 2 games is ridiculous The dude's been playing at a top 10 all time caliber for 4 years now, and just had one of the greatest title runs ever. Let's slow our roll on the overreactions, see how even this series plays out first, let alone the next 2-3 years.

[FultzNationRISE]

Also, in another thread, I repeatedly stated that Jokic lacks the physical nature, to simply “completely take over a game” in a solo/iso sense. His domination is not his own, but his ability to read and predict, and utilize all his teammates movement around him. By himself, in a strict iso post-up, against a defender longer than himself; he cannot simply take over and go on huge runs by himself.

And as I stated above in the quotes, he cannot physically dominate a game on the defensive side.

What Denver former head of basketball operation Tim Connelly built in Minnesnowta; is the blueprint on how to stop what Denver excels at.

This is empirically just wrong.

He’s schooled Davis 1 on 1 in the post two years in a row. Bam couldnt stop him. Dray did a decent job two years ago but he didnt stop him, Jokic was still dropping 40. He’s dropped 47 on DPOY Toody’s head before.

He’s clearly a dominant post scorer when he chooses to be, the stats and the eye test both support this abundantly. If anything he doesnt go to it enough. He doesnt wanna be a ballhog I guess. Right now tho they need him to settle down and just go to work in the post and use that to set up the open passes. Hes doing too many dribble handoffs at the top of the key. Too much trying to take guys off the dribble. Go into the post from the get go, over and over until it stops working. He’s backed guys down nicely a few times in this series already but other times hes been super casual with the ball and turned it over, or just stopped going to it entirely.

[j3lademaster]

The overreactions to these 2 games is ridiculous The dude's been playing at a top 10 all time caliber for 4 years now, and just had one of the greatest title runs ever. Let's slow our roll on the overreactions, see how even this series plays out first, let alone the next 2-3 years.

meh, the knee-jerk overreactions happen with all the greats. It’s just a rite of passage at this point.

[BarberSchool]

This is empirically just wrong.

He’s schooled Davis 1 on 1 in the post two years in a row. Bam couldnt stop him. Dray did a decent job two years ago but he didnt stop him, Jokic was still dropping 40. He’s dropped 47 on DPOY Toody’s head before.

He’s clearly a dominant post scorer when he chooses to be, the stats and the eye test both support this abundantly. If anything he doesnt go to it enough. He doesnt wanna be a ballhog I guess. Right now tho they need him to settle down and just go to work in the post and use that to set up the open passes. Hes doing too many dribble handoffs at the top of the key. Too much trying to take guys off the dribble. Go into the post from the get go, over and over until it stops working. He’s backed guys down nicely a few times in this series already but other times hes been super casual with the ball and turned it over, or just stopped going to it entirely.

Davis is a known obvious pu$$y, and Bam is like 6’7.75” and weighs 234lbs. Towns is a legit 7fter, and his rookie weight of 245 is NOT his current weight lol. Even Naz Reid (6’9.5” and 265lb) is significantly bigger and heavier than Bam, and Naz Reid is certainly mentally and physically tougher than Day-to-Davis.

Toody didn’t really guard Jokic 1-1 these recent games, he was free to roam, as we all said would be his best use case.

Jokic is certainly a highly efficient post up scorer against stretch bigs, and the type of slim mobile bigs that small ball brought into vogue. Against guys bigger and/or longer than him, that advantage evaporates, especially under the allowance of extremely physical play.

[rmt]

Davis is a known obvious pu$$y, and Bam is like 6’7.75” and weighs 234lbs. Towns is a legit 7fter, and his rookie weight of 245 is NOT his current weight lol. Even Naz Reid (6’9.5” and 265lb) is significantly bigger and heavier than Bam, and Naz Reid is certainly mentally and physically tougher than Day-to-Davis.

Toody didn’t really guard Jokic 1-1 these recent games, he was free to roam, as we all said would be his best use case.

Jokic is certainly a highly efficient post up scorer against stretch bigs, and the type of slim mobile bigs that small ball brought into vogue. Against guys bigger and/or longer than him, that advantage evaporates, especially under the allowance of extremely physical play.

I agree with your descriptions of today's big men (save Embiid) - that's why I would have loved to see this Nuggets team play against the 2005 Spurs or better yet - 2004 Pistons with Ben Wallace, Rasheed and McDyess. I think Jokic's individual stats and advanced stats (his game is SO pretty to watch) caused fans' over reaction - same as the over reaction to these 2 losses. If Denver wins next game, it's a whole 'nother series.

[BarberSchool]

If Denver wins next game, it's a whole 'nother series.

if Malone/Denver staff can figure out a way for a smaller, older, hobbled team, to out-physical a younger, bigger, longer team allowed to get away with hella fouls …. That would be something to see!