Misconception about prime Shaquille O'Neal - Overrated as a post-up scorer

[FKAri]

Great thread

I never thought of this, and I'm not about to go double check this research myself... but it honestly seems to fit with what I remember.

I'm curious about something though... I seem to remember Shaq scoring a LOT in semi-transition simply by pinning whoever picked him up under the rim. This I'm assuming does not count as a "post-up" play, since it is a transition bucket, and it is not borne out of catching the ball on the block and going to work. But it makes me wonder exactly how we define post play... because it's still back-to-the-basket offense.

Ya this is where Shaq really shined imo. He'd also get frustrated and discouraged when he wasn't rewarded for running and understandably so. Not easy for a guy his size to continuously run in transition but when he did these were some of his easiest buckets and some of the easiest buckets in NBA history. It was easier for Orlando Shaq to run but it was easier for the big Lakers Shaq to pin guys.

[Im Still Ballin]

Interesting thread.

May want to fix Kareem’s stats, I don’t see the PPP breakdown in his.

Seems like a pretty good sample size but more would be nice. My other question would be strength of opponent. I noticed Shaq’s sample is from playoffs only. It could factor in a slight difference. I don’t have any sort of agenda here, just a few thoughts.

Here are Synergy post-up stats from the 2005-2006 season:

Single Covered in the Post (56.12% of his offense) Good, NBA% 54, PPP 0.89 (FG 255/528 48.3%)

Left block 65.86% of the time. Rating: Average, NBA% 47, PPP 0.84 (FG 156/337 46.29%)

Turns left shoulder 46.79% of the time. Rating: Good, NBA% 52, PPP 0.91 (FG 75/165 45.45%)

Turns right shoulder 48.22% of the time. Rating: Good, NBA% 56, PPP 0.89 (FG 71/156 45.51%)

Faces up 1.19% of the time. Rating: Very Good, NBA% 74, PPP 1 (FG 2/3 66.67%)

Post pins 3.8% of the time. Rating: Average, NBA% 45, PPP 1.19 (FG 8/13 61.54%)

Right block 18.41% of the time. Rating: Good, NBA% 56, PPP 0.85 (FG 50/112 44.64%)

Turns left shoulder 66.14% of the time. Rating: Good, NBA% 55, PPP 0.9 (FG 33/71 46.48%)

Turns right shoulder 30.71% of the time. Rating: Average, NBA% 39, PPP 0.74 (FG 14/37 37.84%) Home Away Both

Faces up 0.79% of the time. Rating: Poor, NBA% 0, PPP 0 (FG 0/1 0%)

Post pins 2.36% of the time. Rating: Excellent, NBA% 94, PPP 2 (FG 3/3 100%)

Flash middle 15.72% of the time. Rating: Good, NBA% 59, PPP 1.12 (FG 49/79 62.03%)

Turns left shoulder 51.55% of the time. Rating: Good, NBA% 62, PPP 1.14 (FG 25/44 56.82%)

Turns right shoulder 38.14% of the time. Rating: Good, NBA% 55, PPP 1.16 (FG 17/28 60.71%)

Faces up 0% of the time. Rating: NA

Post pins 10.31% of the time. Rating: Good, NBA% 61, PPP 1.7 (FG 7/7 100%)

It’s hard to factor in Shaqs post scoring by just percentages when he got fouled on purpose a lot of the time he would have scored. He had 43 on 21-30 vs the pacers in the finals and next game they decide to just not let him do it…so he took 39 free throws. Fouled out the starting 4, fouled out the backup center, and had 5 fouls on the starter.

What are we doing with that information? He was “only” 11-19 from the field. Some of the 11 were just dump offs. He probably didn’t shoot well from the field on post ups. But he had 40 points anyway because he was unstoppable posting up and that’s how they dealt with it. What is that performance?

All good points. The foul pressure was definitely something I forgot to put in the OP. Putting guys in foul trouble and getting into the bonus provided additional offensive value.

All things considered, he has as good of an argument as any for the most impactful post-player. Even if he's not quite as developed in certain aspects compared to other post-up greats. This thread was just more about the nuances of his offensive game, and how people miss these specifics.

Seeing peak Shaq was a huge reason why I started watching the NBA religiously. Some people don't realize how dominant he was on the offensive end. He would straight up murder anyone who guarded him, put up video game numbers in every Finals the Lakers won during the 3 peat. It was seriously like watching a grown man going up against toddlers. One of the things that gets forgotten about him is how clutch he was at the FT line in a big game, for being such a poor free throw shooter, he seemed to make more FTs when the game was on the line. The only person who guarded him respectively during that '00-'02 run was Sabonis. And no, I'm not talking about Domantas, full court.

Facts. Sabonis had the frame to resist Shaq's strength.

Great thread

I never thought of this, and I'm not about to go double check this research myself... but it honestly seems to fit with what I remember.

I'm curious about something though... I seem to remember Shaq scoring a LOT in semi-transition simply by pinning whoever picked him up under the rim. This I'm assuming does not count as a "post-up" play, since it is a transition bucket, and it is not borne out of catching the ball on the block and going to work. But it makes me wonder exactly how we define post play... because it's still back-to-the-basket offense.

All good points. We have to be careful when deconstructing and segregating offense. Scoring from passing; play types from different play types. Because that's not how the game is played. It's all connected and flows together in real-time on the court.

Yeah the 3-10 ft numbers are just awful. If only he took the game more seriously and developed his shot-making ability.

Yeah, that stat kind of illustrates the point of this thread.

Shaquille O'Neal 3-10 feet
Regular season: 43.4% FG (41.6% of total shots attempted)
Playoffs: 40.7% FG (46.1% of total shots attempted)

We only have numbers from 1997 onwards, but Hakeem's percentages are awesome; the numbers below include all his old, broken-down years.

Hakeem Olajuwon 3-10 feet
Regular season: 46.6% FG (28% of total shots attempted)
Playoffs: 52.1% FG (34.4% of total shots attempted)

It was really the super-deep paint presence where Shaq dominated. The restricted area. Similar to Dwight in that respect actually. It's funny how Dwight was criticized for his post-up game when his 3-10 feet numbers weren't too different from Shaq's.

Dwight Howard 3-10 feet
Regular season: 41.6% FG (33.6% of total shots attempted)
Playoffs: 40.5% FG (35.0% of total shots attempted)

With how some people talk about it, I think Dwight's offensive game was underrated. 18-23 PPG, 57-61% FG, 60-63% TS in his prime. You don't put up numbers like that without being a good offensive player. Goes back to my point about certain aspects of basketball being underrated. Power players, offensive rebounds, finishers in the paint.

Dwight just didn't have Shaq's sheer size and strength to get as many of those super-deep, high-percentage looks in the paint. Was also more of a team-oriented, defensive-minded guy. Not overly concerned with putting up big scoring numbers.

Defense was where Shaq really could've been better. Better conditioned; a higher motor.

[hateraid]

This is a case where stats don't compare to good old eye test. So many factors to conceive. Fouls, competition, teammates, career peaks....
Shaq was that unstoppable in the paint. The best way I suggest gauge is I Allstars games where defensive planning is a none issue and Shaq just bulldozed. He was and is the most unstoppable player to ever play.

[dankok8]

Yea Shaq wasn't that effective when he caught it a bit further from the basket. That's why his overall per possession numbers are lower. However this data doesn't tell the whole story because Shaq just exerted so much pressure and got opponents in foul trouble which doesn't show up in this. And it doesn't show how hard it was to deny him deep position in the first place.

Purely offensively it's Kareem = Shaq with Hakeem quite a way behind.

[HoopsNY]

Yea Shaq wasn't that effective when he caught it a bit further from the basket. That's why his overall per possession numbers are lower. However this data doesn't tell the whole story because Shaq just exerted so much pressure and got opponents in foul trouble which doesn't show up in this. And it doesn't show how hard it was to deny him deep position in the first place.

Purely offensively it's Kareem = Shaq with Hakeem quite a way behind.

How is Hakeem quite way behind? Peak Hakeem is '93-'95 whilst peak Shaq is '00-'02. Let's look at their playoff contributions.

Shaq '00-'02: 29.9 PPG | 55.2% FG% | 56.2% TS% | 3.0 APG | 29.3 PER

Hakeem '93-'95: 29.8 PPG | 52.4% FG% | 56.8 TS% | 4.4 APG | 26.2 PER

Shaq has an edge here statistically, but I don't think the advantage is that significant. And I'd argue Hakeem actually had the edge when you consider who he went up against. Hakeem was guarded by bigs like Shaq, Ewing, and Robinson. Not to mention he had Rodman guard him sometimes in the series against SA. Shaq was busy thumping on Rik Smits and Todd MacCulloch. Mutombo, Sabonis, and Divac are better than those guys, but they're nothing in comparison to who Hakeem faced.

Also, I'd argue that Kobe was the Lakers' closer in those years in the playoffs and it was really a 1a/1b situation in the clutch. Hakeem had none of that and was money in the biggest moments and most important games.

Kobe came up huge in games 6 and 7 of the WCF in 2000. He also played extremely well in game 3 in the OT where Shaq had fouled out.

[Reggie43]

Shaq is Shaq. There wouldnt be any "Misconception" if you saw him play at his peak. He is more underrated if anything considering some fans think all he could do was dunk and bully people in the post.

[ImKobe]

How is Hakeem quite way behind? Peak Hakeem is '93-'95 whilst peak Shaq is '00-'02. Let's look at their playoff contributions.

Shaq '00-'02: 29.9 PPG | 55.2% FG% | 56.2% TS% | 3.0 APG | 29.3 PER

Hakeem '93-'95: 29.8 PPG | 52.4% FG% | 56.8 TS% | 4.4 APG | 26.2 PER

Shaq has an edge here statistically, but I don't think the advantage is that significant. And I'd argue Hakeem actually had the edge when you consider who he went up against. Hakeem was guarded by bigs like Shaq, Ewing, and Robinson. Not to mention he had Rodman guard him sometimes in the series against SA. Shaq was busy thumping on Rik Smits and Todd MacCulloch. Mutombo, Sabonis, and Divac are better than those guys, but they're nothing in comparison to who Hakeem faced.

Also, I'd argue that Kobe was the Lakers' closer in those years in the playoffs and it was really a 1a/1b situation in the clutch. Hakeem had none of that and was money in the biggest moments and most important games.

Kobe came up huge in games 6 and 7 of the WCF in 2000. He also played extremely well in game 3 in the OT where Shaq had fouled out.

There's really nothing to argue in terms of KB being the closer. 2000 it was mostly Shaq when you look at the last 5 minutes (score within 5) scoring numbers though KB made most of the big plays in the pivotal moments, but '01 onwards KB was the leading scorer in crunch time by a wide margin.

Drexler did his thing in '95 though, especially in the two elimination games vs. Utah and he was excellent that entire run, definitely on par with '00 KB at the very least.

[warriorfan]

Here are Synergy post-up stats from the 2005-2006 season:





All good points. The foul pressure was definitely something I forgot to put in the OP. Putting guys in foul trouble and getting into the bonus provided additional offensive value.

All things considered, he has as good of an argument as any for the most impactful post-player. Even if he's not quite as developed in certain aspects compared to other post-up greats. This thread was just more about the nuances of his offensive game, and how people miss these specifics.



Facts. Sabonis had the frame to resist Shaq's strength.



All good points. We have to be careful when deconstructing and segregating offense. Scoring from passing; play types from different play types. Because that's not how the game is played. It's all connected and flows together in real-time on the court.



Yeah, that stat kind of illustrates the point of this thread.

Shaquille O'Neal 3-10 feet
Regular season: 43.4% FG (41.6% of total shots attempted)
Playoffs: 40.7% FG (46.1% of total shots attempted)

We only have numbers from 1997 onwards, but Hakeem's percentages are awesome; the numbers below include all his old, broken-down years.

Hakeem Olajuwon 3-10 feet
Regular season: 46.6% FG (28% of total shots attempted)
Playoffs: 52.1% FG (34.4% of total shots attempted)

It was really the super-deep paint presence where Shaq dominated. The restricted area. Similar to Dwight in that respect actually. It's funny how Dwight was criticized for his post-up game when his 3-10 feet numbers weren't too different from Shaq's.

Dwight Howard 3-10 feet
Regular season: 41.6% FG (33.6% of total shots attempted)
Playoffs: 40.5% FG (35.0% of total shots attempted)

With how some people talk about it, I think Dwight's offensive game was underrated. 18-23 PPG, 57-61% FG, 60-63% TS in his prime. You don't put up numbers like that without being a good offensive player. Goes back to my point about certain aspects of basketball being underrated. Power players, offensive rebounds, finishers in the paint.

Dwight just didn't have Shaq's sheer size and strength to get as many of those super-deep, high-percentage looks in the paint. Was also more of a team-oriented, defensive-minded guy. Not overly concerned with putting up big scoring numbers.

Defense was where Shaq really could've been better. Better conditioned; a higher motor.

With Dwight being underrated offensively its because a lot of his game did look pretty ugly. All of his moves were stiff and mechanical. Even his makes looked bad. Even with that all being said the numbers don’t lie, he was still very effective.

[John8204]

Shaq is Shaq. There wouldnt be any "Misconception" if you saw him play at his peak. He is more underrated if anything considering some fans think all he could do was dunk and bully people in the post.

1-8 against Stockton in the playoffs

He was only dominate for a small window when the league was in transition...never had a 30 PPG season left a title team because he couldn't stay in shape.

Shaq is a star but he is drastically overrated.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/gycHkO3LmtI

[Im Still Ballin]

Shaq is Shaq. There wouldnt be any "Misconception" if you saw him play at his peak. He is more underrated if anything considering some fans think all he could do was dunk and bully people in the post.

This kind of reductive thinking is exactly why I made this thread. People nowadays tend to overstate his finesse, giving an incorrect impression of who he was. The numbers don't lie: he wasn't all that great outside of 3 feet.

The issue is you act as if "bullying people in the post" makes him less. As if doing something prettily makes it more valuable. It doesn't. Two points is two points. This goes back to my point about how people overrate finesse players and underrate power players.

What made Shaq unstoppable was his ability to dominate in the restricted area. He could hit the occasional jump-hook from range, but he wasn't great at it.

[Axe]

1-8 against Stockton in the playoffs

He was only dominate for a small window when the league was in transition...never had a 30 PPG season left a title team because he couldn't stay in shape.

Shaq is a star but he is drastically overrated.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/gycHkO3LmtI

And he still has three finals mvps over kobe's two.

[John8204]

And he still has three finals mvps over kobe's two.

#83

[Axe]

Wonder why kobe completely missed the playoffs in his first season without him.

[Reggie43]

This kind of reductive thinking is exactly why I made this thread. People nowadays tend to overstate his finesse, giving an incorrect impression of who he was. The numbers don't lie: he wasn't all that great outside of 3 feet.

The issue is you act as if "bullying people in the post" makes him less. As if doing something prettily makes it more valuable. It doesn't. Two points is two points. This goes back to my point about how people overrate finesse players and underrate power players.

What made Shaq unstoppable was his ability to dominate in the restricted area. He could hit the occasional jump-hook from range, but he wasn't great at it.

Not true at all, my team was one of the victims of Shaqs peak in the Finals and he hit a ton of jumphooks while being double teamed. He was hitting hit at almost the ft line and was the move he scored most of his points.

[Im Still Ballin]

Not true at all, my team was one of the victims of Shaqs peak in the Finals and he hit a ton of jumphooks while being double teamed. He was hitting hit at almost the ft line and was the move he scored most of his points.

What's your definition of 'from range'? Shaq's average field goal attempt came from 4.5 feet in his prime (97-06.) Barely outside the restricted area. He wasn't hitting jump hooks from sky hook range for the majority of his prime.

As I said, he occasionally hit jump hooks from further out - 6ft+. I've watched the games where he sunk shots from the hash marks and even the free-throw line. Most of Shaq's value came in the restricted area, or right in front of it.