Misconception about prime Shaquille O'Neal - Overrated as a post-up scorer

[Im Still Ballin]

When people think of Shaq, they envision a guy who was unstoppable in the post. Someone who scored seemingly every time he got the ball on the low block. It would surprise many to know that he was actually less efficient than other post-up greats.

A RealGM poster manually tracked several greats a few years back. Here's what the post-up numbers ended up looking like:

Shaq: 0.98 PPP (17.6 post-up possessions per game)
Hakeem: 1.13 PPP (16.7 post-up possessions per game)
Kareem: 1.09 PPP (16.3 post-up possessions per game)

Part of Shaq's low number can be explained by poor free throw shooting. However, even if you account for that, he's still below the others.

Shaq is the worst post-up scorer of the three based on the footage of full-length games I've watched. His touch isn't quite as good as Kareem and Hakeem's. Don't get me wrong, it's very good; he's a strong post-up scorer. Shaq's just not as good as people perceive him to be.

However, I think Shaq's the best post-up threat ever. His low-post game adds more to his team's offense than any others do to their respective team. I'm differentiating between scorer and threat here. Shots taken out of the post only encompass a portion of the value a post-up threat brings to a team's offense.

Shaq was underrated as a finisher and offensive rebounder. He'd rebound his own misses and put them back like Moses Malone. He'd spin off overcommitted post defenders and throw down that signature lob. Doesn't count as a post-up bucket but it was set up by his post-up game. The threat of his post-up game.

His strength allowed him to get deep post position, drawing defensive attention off the ball. He'd make things easier for the four other guys, giving them space, opening up shooting opportunities, driving, and passing lanes. These sorts of plays would naturally segue into high-percentage dump-offs, alley-oops, and offensive rebounds.

More finishes that technically don't count as post-up buckets. But you get the idea.

It does seem pointless to deconstruct this point - the difference between post-up scoring and offensive value. But it needs to be said because of the misconception of who Shaq was. The type of player he was. What his dominance looked like.

People seem to remember Shaq as more of a "just throw him the ball down low and he'll score every time." As if thinking of Shaq as more of a garbage man and play-finisher would make him seem less. Which is obviously ludicrous. But I'm sure Shaq would want to be known as the post-up scorer more than the rebounder, lob and dump-off guy.

I think it comes down to the underrating of finishing plays and offensive rebounding. They're not as sexy as creating for one's self in the post. Individual scoring from the low block.

Anyways, thought I'd make this thread. You can check the numbers in the images below. Peep how high Shaq's % and volume is on finishes and off. rebounds.

TL;DR

- Overrated as post-up scorer (0.98 PPP)
- Appropriately rated as a post-up threat (offensive value)
- Underrated as an offensive rebounder and finisher
- Post-up threat sets up high-percentage putbacks, dump-offs, and lobs

Shaquille O'Neal 1998, 2000, 2001 Playoffs (52 games)

Hakeem Olajuwon 1993-1995 (58 games)

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1969-1980 (26 games)

[warriorfan]

Interesting thread.

May want to fix Kareem’s stats, I don’t see the PPP breakdown in his.

Seems like a pretty good sample size but more would be nice. My other question would be strength of opponent. I noticed Shaq’s sample is from playoffs only. It could factor in a slight difference. I don’t have any sort of agenda here, just a few thoughts.

[Full Court]

As far as centers go, I have Shaq ranked behind Russell, Wilt, and Kareem, and ahead of Hakeem.

[Kblaze8855]

It’s hard to factor in Shaqs post scoring by just percentages when he got fouled on purpose a lot of the time he would have scored. He had 43 on 21-30 vs the pacers in the finals and next game they decide to just not let him do it…so he took 39 free throws. Fouled out the starting 4, fouled out the backup center, and had 5 fouls on the starter.

What are we doing with that information? He was “only” 11-19 from the field. Some of the 11 were just dump offs. He probably didn’t shoot well from the field on post ups. But he had 40 points anyway because he was unstoppable posting up and that’s how they dealt with it. What is that performance?

[1987_Lakers]

Seeing peak Shaq was a huge reason why I started watching the NBA religiously. Some people don't realize how dominant he was on the offensive end. He would straight up murder anyone who guarded him, put up video game numbers in every Finals the Lakers won during the 3 peat. It was seriously like watching a grown man going up against toddlers. One of the things that gets forgotten about him is how clutch he was at the FT line in a big game, for being such a poor free throw shooter, he seemed to make more FTs when the game was on the line. The only person who guarded him respectively during that '00-'02 run was Sabonis. And no, I'm not talking about Domantas, full court.

[Axe]

Seeing peak Shaq was a huge reason why I started watching the NBA religiously. Some people don't realize how dominant he was on the offensive end. He would straight up murder anyone who guarded him, put up video game numbers in every Finals the Lakers won during the 3 peat. It was seriously like watching a grown man going up against toddlers. One of the things that gets forgotten about him is how clutch he was at the FT line in a big game, for being such a poor free throw shooter, he seemed to make more FTs when the game was on the line. The only person who guarded him respectively during that '00-'02 run was Sabonis. And no, I'm not talking about Domantas, full court.

[Full Court]

[Full Court]

Seeing peak Shaq was a huge reason why I started watching the NBA religiously. Some people don't realize how dominant he was on the offensive end. He would straight up murder anyone who guarded him, put up video game numbers in every Finals the Lakers won during the 3 peat. It was seriously like watching a grown man going up against toddlers. One of the things that gets forgotten about him is how clutch he was at the FT line in a big game, for being such a poor free throw shooter, he seemed to make more FTs when the game was on the line. The only person who guarded him respectively during that '00-'02 run was Sabonis. And no, I'm not talking about Domantas, full court.

I know you somehow missed this, but Domantas Sabonis made the all star team this year.

You're welcome for the free education.


Also, you misused the word "respectively." You're welcome for that too.

[Axe]

Redneck jizzrag still getting triggered over smileys. What an absolute snowflake.

[Full Court]

Redneck jizzrag still getting triggered over smileys. What an absolute snowflake.

Merman dingus throwing bitch fits over every Full Court post.

What a loser.

[Axe]

He's derailing another good thread again!

@kblaze

[Prometheus]

Great thread

I never thought of this, and I'm not about to go double check this research myself... but it honestly seems to fit with what I remember.

I'm curious about something though... I seem to remember Shaq scoring a LOT in semi-transition simply by pinning whoever picked him up under the rim. This I'm assuming does not count as a "post-up" play, since it is a transition bucket, and it is not borne out of catching the ball on the block and going to work. But it makes me wonder exactly how we define post play... because it's still back-to-the-basket offense.

[ImKobe]

Yeah the 3-10 ft numbers are just awful. If only he took the game more seriously and developed his shot-making ability.

[HoopsNY]

Seeing peak Shaq was a huge reason why I started watching the NBA religiously. Some people don't realize how dominant he was on the offensive end. He would straight up murder anyone who guarded him, put up video game numbers in every Finals the Lakers won during the 3 peat. It was seriously like watching a grown man going up against toddlers. One of the things that gets forgotten about him is how clutch he was at the FT line in a big game, for being such a poor free throw shooter, he seemed to make more FTs when the game was on the line. The only person who guarded him respectively during that '00-'02 run was Sabonis. And no, I'm not talking about Domantas, full court.

Shaq benefited from a league that wanted the Lakers in the finals and winning championships. It was evident when the league fixed the series against the Kings in 2002.

In addition, he dominated weaker front courts in the finals with aging centers like Smits and Mutombo. But during the playoffs (prior to the finals) it was a different story. Shaq looked different against Duncan/Robinson, Sabonis/Wallace/Grant, Divac/Webber and it showed.

Shaq '00-'02 Finals: 36 PPG on 60% FGs
Shaq '00-'02 (first three rounds): 28 PPG on 53% FGs

This isn't to say he would have underachieved against better big men. But I do think Shaq's peak is overrated. You think he could have done that during Wilt and Kareem's time? I certainly don't. He would have been called for a foul every single possession.

[HoopsNY]

All this talk about super and stacked teams with guys like LeBron, KD, MJ, etc...yet no one dares to even mention Shaq and who he played with...

Peak Penny (and a stacked team in Orlando)
Peak Kobe (most say 2006-2010 was Kobe's peak but I'd say Kobe's best year was arguably 2001)
Peak Wade
Peak Amar'e
Peak Nash
Peak LeBron
Celtics superteam

Where's all the criticism for someone who had arguably the best teams/teammates for the majority of their careers?