A closer look at two narratives

**Xiao Yao You** · 03-28-2023, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by ImKobe

You haven't watched the series outside of Jordan's game-winner and you don't know that the Bulls were one of the least fouling teams in the league while the Jazz were the 3rd worst at it. Also, the Jazz weren't a great defensive team while the Bulls were one of the best in the game. Malone also had over twice as many TOs as Jordan and wasn't shooting nearly as much so of course MJ got way more FTs as the Jazz couldn't stop him without fouling. Keep parroting meaningless numbers thinking you have any idea how the sport is played though.

depends on how you look at it. Sloan encouraged fouls. They often led the league under him

**Da_Realist** · 03-28-2023, 09:10 AM

This dude is comparing two series played 20 years apart and never once mentions how LeBron's (non-called) stiff arm is responsible for half his career points. LeBron fans love to deep dive into His Majesty's career but won't go within 10 miles to see how LeBron has gotten his numbers. Willfully blind to his stat padding tactics against lesser teams and during garbage time. Or how he shuts things down on a bad night so he doesn't hurt his precious fg%, preferring to protect his numbers then push to try to win the game. LeBron gets the same numbers whether they win or lose. You can't tell by the stat sheet whether the team won or lost. Nope. All they see is 25-7-7 every night. Shut up. Calculator said LeBron is the greatest.

**Airupthere** · 03-28-2023, 09:13 AM

What about this play OP, bran still trying to get a foul?

**aj1987** · 03-28-2023, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by ImKobe

Low IQ Bran stan strikes again. Jordan had one of the highest usage rates in Finals history (only Bran in 2015 was higher) and averaged 33.5 out of the Bulls' 88 ppg in that series (38% of their total scoring vs 27% for Lebron in 2020), of course he got more FTs.

You're using usage rate to justify FT's? Are you on drugs?

Guess whose shot charts these are:

**warriorfan** · 03-28-2023, 10:49 AM

maybe because lebron offensive fouls over half the time where jordan would get legit fouled as it was impossible to stay in front of him

**ImKobe** · 03-28-2023, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by aj1987

You're using usage rate to justify FT's? Are you on drugs?

Guess whose shot charts these are:

Both were high volume jump shooters but MJ's volume was that much greater, which is why I also mentioned the usage rate as it takes FTAs & turnovers into account as well.

**FKAri** · 03-28-2023, 11:15 AM

OP didn't even offer an argument...

**aj1987** · 04-03-2023, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by ImKobe

Both were high volume jump shooters but MJ's volume was that much greater, which is why I also mentioned the usage rate as it takes FTAs & turnovers into account as well.

Look at the shot chart, dummy. The vast majority of LeBron's points came within 5ft of the paint, while Jordan had 13 shots in the PAINT. LeBron probably had more in a single game. There's a reason why Magic was clowning on MJ and the refs.

**Full Court** · 04-03-2023, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by aj1987

Look at the shot chart, dummy. The vast majority of LeBron's points came within 5ft of the paint, while Jordan had 13 shots in the PAINT. LeBron probably had more in a single game. There's a reason why Magic was clowning on MJ and the refs.

^Bitch fit.

**kawhileonard2** · 04-03-2023, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by basketballcat

Let's have a look at two popular narratives:
1. 90s was physical, not much fouls called
2. LeBron flops to get calls

Let's look at 98 & 2020 Finals, specifically FTA.

Jordan 70
Malone 38

LeBron 42
Butler 53

Oh dear me, facts don't fit the narratives.

Quick, eye test! For the love of God, eye test!

Not only are the narratives on shaky ground, it appears Pippen's side kick got preferential treatment. LeBron is exactly the opposite, with Butler getting more foul calls.

**aj1987** · 04-04-2023, 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by Full Court

^Bitch fit.

Try talking ball on a basketball message board, you morbidly obese retard.

**basketballcat** · 04-04-2023, 04:26 AM

Originally Posted by kawhileonard2

Literally didn't read a word of that.

**guy** · 04-04-2023, 10:56 AM

Players adjust so that’s why there’s not really a correlation between FTAs and physicality/rule changes. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t a more physical game back then and harder to play through both physically and mentally. There’s a reason why Giannis, Luka, Jokic all said the FIBA game is harder, which is more similar to the old NBA.

**ImKobe** · 04-04-2023, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by aj1987

Look at the shot chart, dummy. The vast majority of LeBron's points came within 5ft of the paint, while Jordan had 13 shots in the PAINT. LeBron probably had more in a single game. There's a reason why Magic was clowning on MJ and the refs.

You got these from basketball-reference, right? The short charts are incomplete for Jordan. In game 6 it only shows 1 made shot in the paint for the whole game (a 12-footer at that) when he had 3 layups, in Game 4 you only see 5 of his makes when he made 12 shots in total and none of his made layups (he had 5) show up. These are not accurate at all. Jordan attacked the rim a lot, which is why he had a lot of FTs.

**aj1987** · 04-04-2023, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by ImKobe

You got these from basketball-reference, right? The short charts are incomplete for Jordan. In game 6 it only shows 1 made shot in the paint for the whole game (a 12-footer at that) when he had 3 layups, in Game 4 you only see 5 of his makes when he made 12 shots in total and none of his made layups (he had 5) show up. These are not accurate at all. Jordan attacked the rim a lot, which is why he had a lot of FTs.

Sure. LeBron took 55% of his shots within 10ft. Jordan was at 28%. Jordan took 16.8 shots outside 10ft and 8.4 within 9ft. LeBron took 9.9 shots within 9ft. Jordan was at 12 FTA/G and LeBron was at 7 FTA/G.

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