Verdict is in: Jordan STILL consensus GOAT

[kawhileonard2]

So how is Mj goat over Russell then who almost doubles him up in rings?

Russell came into the league playing with the league mvp winner and ROY and only had to win 2 series to get a title. Since 1985 you had to win 4 series for a title.

[sdot_thadon]

I rank by factoring in both individual and team accomplishments. I have Bill Russell ranked #2.

Exactly what combination of team and individual accomplishments puts Mj ahead for you? He has the same amount of mvps and almost double the rings.

[sdot_thadon]

Russell came into the league playing with the league mvp winner and ROY and only had to win 2 series to get a title. Since 1985 you had to win 4 series for a title.

Russell came into the league and immediately created a dynasty with his presence. He also won 5 mvps himself and was to defense what you believe Mj was to offense. Not to mention he player coached his team to back to back title after a previous 8peat? That in itself is an unmatchable goat level feat.

And throwing mud on his era is whack, Mj entered a league where all the legends were gone by the time he was in his prime. Not to mention the expansion teams watering down depth in the league. Or flagrant fouls being instituted suspiciously when the Pistons were pushing his shit in every year. Or the wnba 3 point line etc. You can throw mud on any era and it's lame.

[Baller789]

Yeah but Russell's offensive prowess was subpar for an ATG.

[Full Court]

Exactly what combination of team and individual accomplishments puts Mj ahead for you? He has the same amount of mvps and almost double the rings.

Add 10 scoring titles while still having elite defense to MJ.

Russell has a case for GOAT, but I have him ranked #2 personally.

[kawhileonard2]

Russell came into the league and immediately created a dynasty with his presence. He also won 5 mvps himself and was to defense what you believe Mj was to offense. Not to mention he player coached his team to back to back title after a previous 8peat? That in itself is an unmatchable goat level feat.

And throwing mud on his era is whack, Mj entered a league where all the legends were gone by the time he was in his prime. Not to mention the expansion teams watering down depth in the league. Or flagrant fouls being instituted suspiciously when the Pistons were pushing his shit in every year. Or the wnba 3 point line etc. You can throw mud on any era and it's lame.

Russell came into the league playing with the league mvp winner in Cousy and ROY in Heinsohn and only had to win 2 series to get a title. Since 1985 you had to win 4 series for a title.
When you show me another guy who came into the league playing with a league mvp and roy let me know.

[Baller789]

Russell came into the league playing with the league mvp winner in Cousy and ROY in Heinsohn and only had to win 2 series to get a title. Since 1985 you had to win 4 series for a title.
When you show me another guy who came into the league playing with a league mvp and roy let me know.

And take note, you didn't diss Russell's competition, like most Bronies do. Only state objective facts.

[sdot_thadon]

Russell came into the league playing with the league mvp winner in Cousy and ROY in Heinsohn and only had to win 2 series to get a title. Since 1985 you had to win 4 series for a title.
When you show me another guy who came into the league playing with a league mvp and roy let me know.

They never made the finals before Bill, in fact they won the chip his 1st season, lost the next year after he was injured in the finals and then 8peated. And to answer your question Scottie came in with an mvp, so did Duncan. Russell actually deserved the Roy award more than the guy they gave it to but that's a whole other discussion. Bill was the engine of the dynasty that won 11 rings.

[PeroAntic]

YeH but what about how long it took (almost twice as long), as well as how many prime stars he had to restack the deck with, as well as all the valuable cherry picked pieces picked up with valuable draft picks he gave away.

The dude couldn't have a more unorganic career if he tried.. everything is manufactured

And 2011

IMO 2011 is nullified by 2016, and stacking the deck is nullified by a very talented era. So that leaves the ring count as a very comparable metric in which Bron lags. Also longevity is a plus if we're talking titles and not accumulated scoring stats, because it means you were the best/among the best over a long period.

[PeroAntic]

For me it has to be three more rings. In 2020, he wasn't even the best player in the playoffs, not to mention the asterisk of a fanless Disney World ring.

I dont diss the bubble ring. A ring is a ring, talking circumstances to put down an achievement is what Bronies do about Jordan and its fkn stupid. Lakers still had to beat a legendary Jimmy Butler and did that with Bron ball.


Another classic Bronie retort is 'Russell has 8 rings hurr durr', thinking they found some gotcha about ring counts. Its stupid af. Russell was a defender only and when he was playing, basketball was not what it is now in the modern era, in terms of gameplay, rules, format etc. I have him somewhere between 5-10 atg.

[sdot_thadon]

I dont diss the bubble ring. A ring is a ring, talking circumstances to put down an achievement is what Bronies do about Jordan and its fkn stupid. Lakers still had to beat a legendary Jimmy Butler and did that with Bron ball.


Another classic Bronie retort is 'Russell has 8 rings hurr durr', thinking they found some gotcha about ring counts. Its stupid af. Russell was a defender only and when he was playing, basketball was not what it is now in the modern era, in terms of gameplay, rules, format etc. I have him somewhere between 5-10 atg.

You don't say?

[PeroAntic]

You don't say?

Ah yes, the difference between MJ and Bron's era is same as the difference with Russell's era

You bums keep trying to find that ultimate gotcha, until then live with the fact that Lebron is #2.

[sdot_thadon]

Ah yes, the difference between MJ and Bron's era is same as the difference with Russell's era

You bums keep trying to find that ultimate gotcha, until then live with the fact that Lebron is #2.

There's no gotcha to be had, that's just the irony of your own words less than a paragraph away from one another. Try not to be a hypocrite. You literally just did to Russell what you accuse "bronies" of doing to Mj.....in the same post!

Russell was the leader of that team and his impact on defense was just as monumental as Jordan's was on offense. And when you say he was just a defender you undersell the hell out of a legend. You'd have to read some books to understand what sort of player Bill was. You think someone who was "only a defender" could ever be considered a better player than a megalithic basketball god like Wilt? Just think about that for a second and understand perhaps there was more to him than you know.

[j3lademaster]

I dont diss the bubble ring. A ring is a ring, talking circumstances to put down an achievement is what Bronies do about Jordan and its fkn stupid. Lakers still had to beat a legendary Jimmy Butler and did that with Bron ball.


Another classic Bronie retort is 'Russell has 8 rings hurr durr', thinking they found some gotcha about ring counts. Its stupid af. Russell was a defender only and when he was playing, basketball was not what it is now in the modern era, in terms of gameplay, rules, format etc. I have him somewhere between 5-10 atg.

I try to keep it away from ring count as much as possible. Yes, ring count matters... of course it does, and as unfair as it sounds, players can't make the top 10 goat list without having proven they can win a ring while dominating in the finals. For me it comes down to:

Jordan- highest playoff per, highest playoff +/-, highest playoff ppg. 179 playoff games are enough to substantiate these stats.

Lebron- highest total playoff points, highest ppg in elimination games over 87 more playoff games than Jordan.

What do you value more? Makes no difference to me, it's not like either of them so much as bought me a beer ever.

I can use eye test, but Jordan will win that one for sure. Not even that he's necessarily better, but I watched Jordan when I was much younger and thus more impressionable. It's just not a fair comparison.

[Full Court]

I try to keep it away from ring count as much as possible. Yes, ring count matters... of course it does, and as unfair as it sounds, players can't make the top 10 goat list without having proven they can win a ring while dominating in the finals. For me it comes down to:

Jordan- highest playoff per, highest playoff +/-, highest playoff ppg. 179 playoff games are enough to substantiate these stats.

Lebron- highest total playoff points, highest ppg in elimination games over 87 more playoff games than Jordan.

What do you value more? Makes no difference to me, it's not like either of them so much as bought me a beer ever.

I can use eye test, but Jordan will win that one for sure. Not even that he's necessarily better, but I watched Jordan when I was much younger and thus more impressionable. It's just not a fair comparison.

Ring count alone doesn't mean a whole lot. If it did, Dennis Rodman would be top twenty of all time. But winning multiple rings as the alpha - getting finals MVP - is the pinnacle achievement in the sport. You have to factor it in.