Embiid fans? Prepare to hate on Hakeem.

[DMAVS41]

Whether the specific criticism about his game is fair or not, imo...is just noise.

Joel hasn't been out of the 2nd round in his career and he absolutely had enough help to win this series. His team won a road playoff game without him and he had a chance to close the series out at home. A game that saw the opposing team's best player play the worst game of his career through like 42 minutes.

Everything else is just noise. If you can't close out that game...then fall apart in game 7...you don't deserve the benefit of the doubt historically unless you've already accomplished real things. Joel hasn't yet...so he will and should be criticized until he proves he can get it done like the old guys did.

[RachlNicholsazz]

Jokic is much better in the regular season but they are pretty close in the playoffs. It sucks to say it but it is very easy to counter offensively skilled big men in the playoffs. You just go at them every play with pnr. Even if their center is good defensively they will get tired. It is what it is.

Care to revisit this statement?

[theman93]

Embiid is the T-Mac of round 2.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jokic is much better in the regular season but they are pretty close in the playoffs. It sucks to say it but it is very easy to counter offensively skilled big men in the playoffs. You just go at them every play with pnr. Even if their center is good defensively they will get tired. It is what it is.

Literally have that completely wrong.

[Kblaze8855]

Everything else is just noise. If you can't close out that game...then fall apart in game 7...you don't deserve the benefit of the doubt historically unless you've already accomplished real things. Joel hasn't yet...so he will and should be criticized until he proves he can get it done like the old guys did..

Im wondering what you mean by that. Far as getting the benefit. What does it mean he is as opposed to what he’d be otherwise?


Off the top of my head these are the mvp centers


Russell
Wilt
Unseld
Reed
Kareem
Cowens
Mcadoo
Walton
Moses
Drob
Hakeem
Shaq
Jokic
Embiid


Not getting the benefit makes him what? Towards the bottom of that list? On a whole other list with guys like Zo, Dwight, Ewing?

What kinda real world impact on his status does not having “the benefit” make on where you rank him?

I don’t care where you put him for the record so I’m not looking to argue. I’m just curious.

[Im Still Ballin]

Doesn't have a jump hook, does he? Joel isn't much of a vertical jump guy. A high-release jump hook could do him well

[DMAVS41]

Im wondering what you mean by that. Far as getting the benefit. What does it mean he is as opposed to what he’d be otherwise?


Off the top of my head these are the mvp centers


Russell
Wilt
Unseld
Reed
Kareem
Cowens
Mcadoo
Walton
Moses
Drob
Hakeem
Shaq
Jokic
Embiid


Not getting the benefit makes him what? Towards the bottom of that list? On a whole other list with guys like Zo, Dwight, Ewing?

What kinda real world impact on his status does not having “the benefit” make on where you rank him?

I don’t care where you put him for the record so I’m not looking to argue. I’m just curious.

I wasn't even talking in relation to other centers really, just broadly speaking, although that would be fine as well...I just haven't put any thought into it in terms of ranking centers.

Benefit of the doubt meaning, if an old head or people criticize how you play...fair or not...doesn't matter when you don't have the results to back up how you play. We all know that if Joel had played a dominant game 6 and won that series and then goes on to win a title while playing great....nobody is saying shit about his style taking too many 3's or whatever the take currently is.

To me, people get lost in the details sometimes. Joel is a dominant all-time great player...I don't see how anyone can dispute that. Debating how great is perfectly reasonable...and I think trying to find flaws in his specific approach to the game, while some might be valid, ends up missing that he just didn't play well enough to win. Skillset and approach to the game only go so far if you come up short in key moments and games in your career.

In terms of specific ranking of him so far, I don't know...maybe Ewing level...I'm not sure.

[SouBeachTalents]

I wasn't even talking in relation to other centers really, just broadly speaking, although that would be fine as well...I just haven't put any thought into it in terms of ranking centers.

Benefit of the doubt meaning, if an old head or people criticize how you play...fair or not...doesn't matter when you don't have the results to back up how you play. We all know that if Joel had played a dominant game 6 and won that series and then goes on to win a title while playing great....nobody is saying shit about his style taking too many 3's or whatever the take currently is.

To me, people get lost in the details sometimes. Joel is a dominant all-time great player...I don't see how anyone can dispute that. Debating how great is perfectly reasonable...and I think trying to find flaws in his specific approach to the game, while some might be valid, ends up missing that he just didn't play well enough to win. Skillset and approach to the game only go so far if you come up short in key moments and games in your career.

He really doesn't play like that in the playoffs, or he at least clearly doesn't match his regular season standards, similar to his running mate Harden.

[DMAVS41]

He really doesn't play like that in the playoffs, or he at least clearly doesn't match his regular season standards, similar to his running mate Harden.

It just depends on the standards...if the standards are "top 15 all-time"...then ok, I agree with you, but I don't think a player has to be in that class to be considered dominant or all-time great.

[SouBeachTalents]

It just depends on the standards...if the standards are "top 15 all-time"...then ok, I agree with you, but I don't think a player has to be in that class to be considered dominant or all-time great.

I feel like you REALLY undersell how much his play drops off in the playoffs, esp the last 2 years. He's averaged 30+ over the past 2 seasons, in the playoffs he's failed to crack even 24 ppg, in an era where we've seen 4 guys drop 50 in these playoffs alone and another score 45 on 80% over multiple games. A similar drop in production occurred in 2018 & 2019.

22/23 Regular season: 32/10/4 on 64%TS
22/23 Postseason: 24/10/2 on 58%TS

He's legitimately a different tier of player, and the bigger the game, the worse he gets. His last 2 elimination games

20/12/2 on 7/24
15/8/2 on 5/18

After yesterday's game he's officially reached Harden status for me, where he's consistently disappointed in the playoffs and needs to prove he can accomplish something of note in the postseason.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I feel like you REALLY undersell how much his play drops off in the playoffs, esp the last 2 years. He's averaged 30+ over the past 2 seasons, in the playoffs he's failed to crack even 24 ppg, in an era where we've seen 4 guys drop 50 in these playoffs alone and another score 45 on 80% over multiple games. A similar drop in production occurred in 2018 & 2019.

22/23 Regular season: 32/10/4 on 64%TS
22/23 Postseason: 24/10/2 on 58%TS

He's legitimately a different tier of player, and the bigger the game, the worse he gets. His last 2 elimination games

20/12/2 on 7/24
15/8/2 on 5/18

After yesterday's game he's officially reached Harden status for me, where he's consistently disappointed in the playoffs and needs to prove he can accomplish something of note in the postseason.

They were also 2-0 in the games he sat.


Agree with your sentiment. He goes from MVP caliber player in the reg season to Julius Randle caliber in the playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

I feel like you REALLY undersell how much his play drops off in the playoffs, esp the last 2 years. He's averaged 30+ over the past 2 seasons, in the playoffs he's failed to crack even 24 ppg, in an era where we've seen 4 guys drop 50 in these playoffs alone and another score 45 on 80% over multiple games. A similar drop in production occurred in 2018 & 2019.

22/23 Regular season: 32/10/4 on 64%TS
22/23 Postseason: 24/10/2 on 58%TS

He's legitimately a different tier of player, and the bigger the game, the worse he gets. His last 2 elimination games

20/12/2 on 7/24
15/8/2 on 5/18

After yesterday's game he's officially reached Harden status for me, where he's consistently disappointed in the playoffs and needs to prove he can accomplish something of note in the postseason.

I think you aren't understanding my point. You are actually making it...unless you think there is a fatal flaw in his skillset or approach to the game that prevents him from performing better in the playoffs.

So, that would be the first part...how much he drops off. I agree, again, that was my point...he needs to just play better...I view Joel as being capable of that, but not doing it for a variety of reasons....including letting the pressure get to him.

The second part, is whether or not one should consider what Joel has done in the entirety of his career to date warrants being called all-time great and dominant. That can be up to the individual, of course, but you say "Harden status" as if James Harden isn't one of the best players ever. Harden, who I'm not even a fan of, is clearly one of the best players ever...where will he ultimately rank...I don't know, but likely in the top 75 or higher.

At some point it is just semantics with some of this stuff.

My overall point was simply that I don't think there is some skillset flaw or approach to the game flaw that prevents Joel from playing a great game 6 and closing out the Celtics. I don't think he's perfect, of course, but how about just make more shots, play a bit harder, work harder on the glass, be a better leader...etc.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I think you aren't understanding my point. You are actually making it...unless you think there is a fatal flaw in his skillset or approach to the game that prevents him from performing better in the playoffs.

So, that would be the first part...how much he drops off. I agree, again, that was my point...he needs to just play better...I view Joel as being capable of that, but not doing it for a variety of reasons....including letting the pressure get to him.

The second part, is whether or not one should consider what Joel has done in the entirety of his career to date warrants being called all-time great and dominant. That can be up to the individual, of course, but you say "Harden status" as if James Harden isn't one of the best players ever. Harden, who I'm not even a fan of, is clearly one of the best players ever...where will he ultimately rank...I don't know, but likely in the top 75 or higher.

At some point it is just semantics with some of this stuff.

My overall point was simply that I don't think there is some skillset flaw or approach to the game flaw that prevents Joel from playing a great game 6 and closing out the Celtics. I don't think he's perfect, of course, but how about just make more shots, play a bit harder, work harder on the glass, be a better leader...etc.

There is a blatant flaw in his skillset in the playoffs, including defense. He lacks the burst in 1 on 1 situations to be a consistent half court scorer, and is EASILY shut down and forced into turnovers when doubled. He's not a good enough jump shooter yet relies on them because he cannot consistently score in the post.

Defensively he was abused with PnRs... literally abused. Go watch that game and see Tatum and Co. eating him alive.

It absolutely is a skill problem on top of a mental problem.

He is a slow lumbering turnover prone 7 footer who can't shoot well but relies on jump shots. His game is horrible for the playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

There is a blatant flaw in his skillset in the playoffs, including defense. He lacks the burst in 1 on 1 situations to be a consistent half court scorer, and is EASILY shut down and forced into turnovers when doubled. He's not a good enough jump shooter yet relies on them because he cannot consistently score in the post.

Defensively he was abused with PnRs... literally abused. Go watch that game and see Tatum and Co. eating him alive.

It absolutely is a skill problem on top of a mental problem.

He is a slow lumbering turnover prone 7 footer who can't shoot well but relies on jump shots. His game is horrible for the playoffs.

I agree that he struggles with passing out of doubles and also agree he has some things to overcome mentally, but I don't think that or any of the other stuff you mention...are fatal flaws. Every player can improve in certain areas and no player is perfect.

Tatum and Co. were not eating him alive...in game 6, Tatum was playing one of the worst elimination games a star has played in NBA history. If Joel and Harden step up and close that game out...you aren't saying 80% of what you are right now.

That is my exact point, the specific criticism...and again, some of it is absolutely fair...is just noise to me because even granting all of it...Joel was a decent 4th qtr away from being in the conference finals and the favorite to make the NBA finals. If the take is...he's so fatally flawed that it would be unrealistic for him to drop 12 points in a home 4th qtr and grab a few more boards...to close out a series...then ok. I disagree with that take, but fair enough.

[90sgoat]

The truth is that big men are not as skilled as they used to be.

They all want to play like guards, while what they actually need is a short hook shot over both shoulders.

That's it.

It's embarassing that Embiid is an MVP and doesn't have a basic hook shot.