If Embiid and Jokic had to run the center gauntlet in 1995 how many get outpayed?

[Mask the Embiid]

Sacrebleu!

[Reggie43]

Hakeem, Shaq, Drob were obviously better but I would like to see Jokic and Embiid try to get their numbers against Ewing with Oakley and Mason by his side.

[999Guy]

Could see Shaq really bothering Embiid.

Hakeem would torch Nikola.


Mourning and Hakeem are the best bets to slow Jokic. Dike, Ewing, and D-Rob’s center of gravity are just too high. Hakeem and Alonzo are shorter, stronger still quick and with great hands on Hakeem’s part.

Embiid is different. Gut says Hakeem would bother him a bit but size differences is something Embiid really thrives on. Moreso than Nikola. Embiid could simplify things and just back Hakeem down or seal him.

Most matchups would lend themselves to shootouts though.

Jokic and Shaq would trade 30+ point nights. Especially Orlando Shaq. D-Rob would kill both with his face up game.

[iamgine]

Jokic and Embiid would feast. None of those centers could shoot 3s and in 1995, the 3pt line was shortened. Many of the things that makes those 90s centers great (rim protection, rebounding, blocking shots) would largely be diminished when they just get switched on the perimeter or have to defend Jokic spamming 10 3s a game.

I expect total obliteration of the 90s team.

[RogueBorg]

Strictly in the paint?

Yeah, because Jokic will have to guard Dream, Ewing, and Shaq in the paint. Robinson would too but he and Ewing could also step outside and hit the midrange.

So how does the big slow lumbering Jokic do guarding these guys in the paint?

I think they eat him alive.

[Kblaze8855]

Hakeem, Shaq, Drob were obviously better but I would like to see Jokic and Embiid try to get their numbers against Ewing with Oakley and Mason by his side.

That’s one of the things it seems so many young fans don’t get. Teams played with 2 real bigs and often had a couple more to spare so it wasn’t one tall guy we call a center and 4 wings. That’s easy to dominate inside and gobble up rebounds. It was Ewing, Oakley, and Mason all of which were double digit rebounders or would be on their own team. Oakley got 30 rebounds on the Bulls. You play the Spurs it’s not just Drob. Dennis Rodman is next to him getting 15-25 rebounds a night. Hakeem is with Otis Thorpe who even if you didn’t know him…you know he’s named Otis. Enough said. Shaq is with Horace Grant. Mourning with Larry Johnson and later PJ Brown. Smits was one of 3 all star centers on his team and none of them were the best defensive big on the team. Mutombo is the only one who was the only true physical presence on his team.

Im not saying modern guys couldn’t hang. Especially Jokic and Embiid who are all timers. I’m just saying the conditions for stacking numbers would be very different.

A lot of those guys would have had better numbers if usually they were the only true old school big ones the floor and the other guy was a stretch big surrounded by wings and guards. Be like playing Sam Perkins except instead of Kemp next to him he has Rashard Lewis. Presents problems of its own but definitely some advantages inside.

Put Shaq, Hakeem, or Drob on the floor with 8 perimeter players and a 6’9” bum who can either only dunk or only shoot 3s so they can swap a wing on them and just let them roam.

Those rebounding numbers go up quick. They played with too many other big competitors who limited their production.

Im sure the per minute numbers change.

That said…blocks likely go down for a guy like Zo who wanted you to come to him and guys who didn’t wanna step outside.

But a guy like Hakeem or David who could move and do it all?

Be something to see.

[FultzNationRISE]

That’s one of the things it seems so many young fans don’t get. Teams played with 2 real bigs and often had a couple more to spare so it wasn’t one tall guy we call a center and 4 wings. That’s easy to dominate inside and gobble up rebounds. It was Ewing, Oakley, and Mason all of which were double digit rebounders or would be on their own team. Oakley got 30 rebounds on the Bulls. You play the Spurs it’s not just Drob. Dennis Rodman is next to him getting 15-25 rebounds a night. Hakeem is with Otis Thorpe who even if you didn’t know him…you know he’s named Otis. Enough said. Shaq is with Horace Grant. Mourning with Larry Johnson and later PJ Brown. Smits was one of 3 all star centers on his team and none of them were the best defensive big on the team. Mutombo is the only one who was the only true physical presence on his team.

Im not saying modern guys couldn’t hang. Especially Jokic and Embiid who are all timers. I’m just saying the conditions for stacking numbers would be very different.

A lot of those guys would have had better numbers if usually they were the only true old school big ones the floor and the other guy was a stretch big surrounded by wings and guards. Be like playing Sam Perkins except instead of Kemp next to him he has Rashard Lewis. Presents problems of its own but definitely some advantages inside.

Put Shaq, Hakeem, or Drob on the floor with 8 perimeter players and a 6’9” bum who can either only dunk or only shoot 3s so they can swap a wing on them and just let them roam.

Those rebounding numbers go up quick. They played with too many other big competitors who limited their production.

Im sure the per minute numbers change.

That said…blocks likely go down for a guy like Zo who wanted you to come to him and guys who didn’t wanna step outside.

But a guy like Hakeem or David who could move and do it all?

Be something to see.

Someone should let the rest of today’s centers know that then, bc they didnt all average 14 per game this season like Joker did.

He’s clearly an above average rebounder any which way you measure it. Theres no reason to think he’s getting abused defensively by the likes of Zo and Ewing.

Yes, I agree Dream and Admiral will finesse him all game long, but it’s not like he cant serve em back just the same. Draymond got all he could handle in the playoffs (did a very respectable job but Joker still scored plenty) so dont see why it would be diff for those other guys.

[SouBeachTalents]

[Kblaze8855]

Someone should let the rest of today’s centers know that then, bc they didnt all average 14 per game this season like Joker did.

He’s clearly an above average rebounder any which way you measure it. Theres no reason to think he’s getting abused defensively by the likes of Zo and Ewing.

Yes, I agree Dream and Admiral will finesse him all game long, but it’s not like he cant serve em back just the same. Draymond got all he could handle in the playoffs (did a very respectable job but Joker still scored plenty) so dont see why it would be diff for those other guys.

Deandre Jordan, Rudy, Capela, Drummond, Jokic…all of them have been in the 14-16 rebound a game range and none of them play old school minutes. Capela gets 12 and 14 a game the last couple seasons in 28 and 30 minutes a night. David Robinson the year in question played 38+ minutes to get 10. Think maybe playing next to Dennis Rodman is a factor? Ewing getting 11 in 38 minutes next to Mason and Oakley? Think it factored in? Drummond 16 rebounds a game on the Pistons in low minutes with the next two tallest players taking 6 threes a game each. Don’t think it helps?

Its not about Jokic or Embiid or anyone specifically. It’s about a league of stretch bigs and wings and every decent physical big being able to push them around.

I don’t think it’s a stretch to say the likes of Hakeem, David, and Shaq who dominated vs teams built to slow them could do a little better vs teams that are built for spacing.

Real bigs dominate these wings and lob specialists. As Jokic and Embiid show.

[TheMan]

I would expect them to outplay Ewing Mourning and Mutombo.

I don't know about Ewing, he had a jumper and could kill you down low. Mutombo has the defense over both of them, maybe vs Mourning but that's it. The other guys would kill Embid and Jokic.

[TheMan]

That’s one of the things it seems so many young fans don’t get. Teams played with 2 real bigs and often had a couple more to spare so it wasn’t one tall guy we call a center and 4 wings. That’s easy to dominate inside and gobble up rebounds. It was Ewing, Oakley, and Mason all of which were double digit rebounders or would be on their own team. Oakley got 30 rebounds on the Bulls. You play the Spurs it’s not just Drob. Dennis Rodman is next to him getting 15-25 rebounds a night. Hakeem is with Otis Thorpe who even if you didn’t know him…you know he’s named Otis. Enough said. Shaq is with Horace Grant. Mourning with Larry Johnson and later PJ Brown. Smits was one of 3 all star centers on his team and none of them were the best defensive big on the team. Mutombo is the only one who was the only true physical presence on his team.

Im not saying modern guys couldn’t hang. Especially Jokic and Embiid who are all timers. I’m just saying the conditions for stacking numbers would be very different.

A lot of those guys would have had better numbers if usually they were the only true old school big ones the floor and the other guy was a stretch big surrounded by wings and guards. Be like playing Sam Perkins except instead of Kemp next to him he has Rashard Lewis. Presents problems of its own but definitely some advantages inside.

Put Shaq, Hakeem, or Drob on the floor with 8 perimeter players and a 6’9” bum who can either only dunk or only shoot 3s so they can swap a wing on them and just let them roam.

Those rebounding numbers go up quick. They played with too many other big competitors who limited their production.

Im sure the per minute numbers change.

That said…blocks likely go down for a guy like Zo who wanted you to come to him and guys who didn’t wanna step outside.

But a guy like Hakeem or David who could move and do it all?

Be something to see.

Great post

[MadDogg]

Prime Hakeem & Shaq are winning most of their matchups. Shaq's brute play and weight would cause them fatigue, impacting their offensive output. Hakeem was a handful on both ends and showed he could carry a larger burden than Embiid and Joker. I also trust his cardio more than theirs.

I could see a prime DRob (more athletic and a better 2 way player than Jokic) winning over 50% of his matchups. Its close though. Ewing/Mutombo/Zo would have their share of good games, and may even clamp a few of them from time to time. Overall, though, I think Embiid and Joker have too much in their bag. They'd win most of their duels.

[FultzNationRISE]

Deandre Jordan, Rudy, Capela, Drummond, Jokic…all of them have been in the 14-16 rebound a game range and none of them play old school minutes. Capela gets 12 and 14 a game the last couple seasons in 28 and 30 minutes a night. David Robinson the year in question played 38+ minutes to get 10. Think maybe playing next to Dennis Rodman is a factor? Ewing getting 11 in 38 minutes next to Mason and Oakley? Think it factored in? Drummond 16 rebounds a game on the Pistons in low minutes with the next two tallest players taking 6 threes a game each. Don’t think it helps?

Its not about Jokic or Embiid or anyone specifically. It’s about a league of stretch bigs and wings and every decent physical big being able to push them around.

I don’t think it’s a stretch to say the likes of Hakeem, David, and Shaq who dominated vs teams built to slow them could do a little better vs teams that are built for spacing.

Real bigs dominate these wings and lob specialists. As Jokic and Embiid show.

Right, and theyre all considered defensive standouts except Jokic.

It’s bifurcation bias. People know Rudy and Drummon arent in the league for their offensive game, so theyre more confident claiming what amazing defenders those guys are. People see Jokic as an offensive star and assume he’s probably unremarkable on defense. (And obviously the skin color is a factor). But he’s actually pretty good. Not elite, but good.

[RRR3]

Jokic and Embiid would feast. None of those centers could shoot 3s and in 1995, the 3pt line was shortened. Many of the things that makes those 90s centers great (rim protection, rebounding, blocking shots) would largely be diminished when they just get switched on the perimeter or have to defend Jokic spamming 10 3s a game.

I expect total obliteration of the 90s team.

Neither Jokic or Embiid are great 3 point shooters, and both prefer to play inside the line.

[Kblaze8855]

Right, and theyre all considered defensive standouts except Jokic.

It’s bifurcation bias. People know Rudy and Drummon arent in the league for their offensive game, so theyre more confident claiming what amazing defenders those guys are. People see Jokic as an offensive star and assume he’s probably unremarkable on defense. (And obviously the skin color is a factor). But he’s actually pretty good. Not elite, but good.

Which has what to do with your reply to me talking about rebounding relative to era with Jokics rebounding in this era? He and all the top rebounders these days benefit from small ball letting them often be the only real bigs on the floor. How you take that into racial issues is weird.

Todays good rebounders get huge boards in low minutes which makes them comparable rebounders by numbers alone to the guys in question while not accounting for era related differences was the point. I don’t think I mentioned his defense at all in the post you replied to.

I just don’t think it’s by chance all these guys have historic rebounding numbers in less minutes than some of the best bigs ever. Moses Malone in his absolute prime as an mvp got 14 rebounds a game playing 42 minutes a night. Capela got 14 a game in 30 minutes despite the Hawks taking less shots a game than Moses’ Rockets and a lot less of them being around the basket.

I just don’t think that’s an accurate way to judge their rebounding. One is a good rebounder or even great…but in a league that doesn’t play many real bigs. One is a goat tier guy in a league that played and focused on them. Andre Drummond got 10 rebounds a game in 22 minutes on the Nets. I don’t necessarily think that we need to compare him as a rebounder to Ewing and say he works him because at times Ewing got 10 in 40.

The numbers can’t be looked at the same in my eyes. League too different.