This is what 41 year old Joe Johnson looks like today.

[Kblaze8855]

He’s been washed for years. Peaked like 12-15 years ago.

Is there a simple explanation for what it is we lose that makes us so much worse with time even when our body doesn’t show it?

I assume it’s because you can’t see joints and tendons…how bones feel when you land. You can maintain the muscle but the total bodily support isn’t there so even guys like Joe who were never great athletes can’t maintain.

What I’m thinking about is…someone has to be working on this right? I’ve read from people I assume just googled it themselves that fast twitch fibers reduce with time and can’t be replaced but as I said I don’t trust the source.

Then there’s of course the fact that many of these modern athletes look a lot different minus the various plastic surgeons, hair transplants, and so on that keep them from appearing to age. But I’m talking more about the function of the body than appearances.

Someone is gonna figure out how you can have more muscle at 40 than 19 but be half the athlete and beat it with a non steroid pill or treatment? It’s not as simple as muscle building of course. We can build muscle and be less explosive. There are many factors but we have to be closing in on defeating this…right? Or no?

There are muscles…tendons…joints…bones…it’s a physical thing. This problem of losing general athleticism even while maintaining outward appearances feels like it can be solved. We are definitely getting better at it with a deeper understanding and a focus on nutrition, flexibility, and so on.

You go look at the old guys they mostly look like they used to or better. Melo looks better today than he did 20 years ago. Rondo and Dwight look about the same. Guys get old and realize they used to eat like shit and not stretch or sleep enough. They get in better shape…often get more skilled….and still get worse. Even the ones who weren’t explosive to begin with.

With technology and research we have lessened the long term impact of injuries…helped muscles work better for longer…

The training medical advances and technology are a huge part of why every five years for the last 40 people keep coming out and saying players are more athletic than they’ve ever been.

My question is this….

Assuming a super soldier serum is a pipe dream we will never defeat time and make a well tuned athlete of means with similar muscle stay at peak athleticism until he decides to stop maintaining it…


So are the advances just about done with? In 20 years are we still going to be saying how much more athletic the players are compared to what we see today? Will the standard for longevity be playing in the NBA in your 50s?

It took us 40 years to get here from this being 37








We don’t have THAT much More to do to our bodies do we? What could possibly happen from here? Is someone going to figure out that you can cross a peach with an avocado and create some monstrous purple fruit with a pit that makes you immortal?

Records will continue to be broken incrementally no doubt but we’re about done with shocking jumps aren’t we?

All that’s left is for us is to combine being able to look the same forever with maintaining the function of all the shit that makes us move…right?

So if that’s a pipe dream…is serious advancement of athletic potential and longevity over?

What can you imagine happening that will justify people in 2055 saying how much more athletic everyone in the nba/nfl is than they were in 2022?

Will everyone be Wilt who could have played at 50 but just got bored and did other things?

[Kblaze8855]

Damn That was kind of a lot. I didn’t notice as I was going because I’m walking around my house looking for something and finding everything I don’t need. There are so many stashed bags of Bath and body Works candles in my house right now. Think I’m gonna light this iced dragon fruit tea candle and get on the treadmill. I suspect I can play Elden ring if I keep the pace on like a four and do like 2 hours for cardio instead of a set distance.

I get so ****ing bored these days. I’ve been traveling nonstop for two years and it’s finally gotten old. I literally throw shit in a suitcase and go 1000 miles because I see a nice restaurant on TV and it’s an excuse to not lay around the house for a week. Then I find myself walking around Austin looking at the weird trees that have the long branches that grow across peoples whole yards and they convert into seating and think of buying a house there just to have such a tree.

Id never have quit working if I thought I only had 2 years worth of exploring the country to do. Now I have to move on to the rest of the planet but I can’t do that on a whim. Problem is I don’t plan thing. And you kind of need to plan a trip through Japan you know? My girlfriend makes grand plans but gets annoyed I don’t commit fully to them a year in advance because then it feels like a chore not an adventure.

So now I play elden ring and listen to audio books. And go off on wild TLDR rants about old people athleticism.

Just a window into my madness and a bit of an apology for throwing words at you. Which I did by…throwing words at you.

Im nothing if not consistent.

[Im Still Ballin]

Loss of elasticity in the muscles, connective tissue, and bone. Less about the muscle size and more about its ability to snap like a rubber band and provide that 'bounce.' All it takes is losing some of that pop in the lower extremities and it's a wrap.

Terrell Owens ran a 4.38 forty at 48 years old. Gatling was putting up great times in his mid to late 30's. LeBron's still doing his thing.

[Kblaze8855]

I know it isn’t about muscle size otherwise 50 year old bodybuilders would be out jumping skinny high school kids. What I would like to see is the research being done to defeat the problem and to know how realistic it is that the advances effectively eliminate muscle aging or reduce it to the point a guy like LeBron or even Tom Brady is normal without the extremes they go to to maintain themselves.

[hateraid]

Other factors

Supplements
Smoking
Alcohol
Stress
Therapy

[Kblaze8855]

I do Wonder what some of it all athletes would look like in their 30s and 40s in society had effectively eliminated public smoking back then.

People under like 35 wouldn’t believe what society smelled and looked like before smokers got shamed into their homes.

You couldn’t walk into a building without a cloud of smoke at the door. Bars and restaurants you damn near needed a mask even in non smoking sections.

I was in a casino on the gulf coast recently and smelled a cigarette and realized it has been forever since I even saw a lit one in public being casually smoked near me.

[Im Still Ballin]

There's something to be said about the increase in sedentary lifestyles and soil depletion. Testosterone levels have been steadily decreasing for 60-70 years:





Imagine how bad it's gotten with the advent of smartphones, apps, and social media.

[Kblaze8855]

So You’re thinking the athletes of today come from a stock of weaker humans who are just much better prepared to maximize what they have?

it’s not inconceivable. Our technology and medicine have clearly defeated the natural selection that made humanity get stronger as weaknesses get weeded out with time. Kids with life-threatening allergies or defects simply wouldn’t survive 300 years ago but now they survive and pass along those weaknesses at a much higher rate. Same goes for generally being a weakling. We thought ourselves out of the food chain and out of the elements that would eliminate the weakest of us.

If we don’t get comfortable with genetic modification humans 1000 years from now will be softer than we can imagine.

[FultzNationRISE]

If thats what Joe Johnson looks like at 41, literally imagine how amazing Lebron’s gonna look.

[Im Still Ballin]

Yeah, pretty much. The quality of the genetic pool is subtly declining and will continue to do so.

I also think there's a huge ontogenic influence as well. I think the Sonny Listons of the world have become less common. Hard manual labor, particularly early in life, builds a particular kind of natural physical development. One that the weight room can't quite emulate.

I'm never surprised when I hear that a physical specimen grew up on a farm. A lot of NFL/NCAA linemen come from farms in the Mid-West.

Liston was basically worked as a slave by his dad; he used him as a beast of labor. Max Baer worked at his dad's butcher shop, hauling heavy carcasses all day long. Francis Ngannou was digging sand all day long to help support his family.

Epigenetics is a real thing. The things we do in our lifetime are absolutely modifying our genetics.

Kids these days are growing up playing video games and socializing through smartphones, apps, webcams, and computers. It was already bad for kids in the '90s and '00s, but at least they largely had to leave the house to socialize. The progression of the internet and smartphones has taken things a step further I feel.

Might get even worse if Zuckerberg's Metaverse dream is a success.

[999Guy]

There's something to be said about the increase in sedentary lifestyles and soil depletion. Testosterone levels have been steadily decreasing for 60-70 years:





Imagine how bad it's gotten with the advent of smartphones, apps, and social media.

I really believe it’s plastic. All the microplastic in our bodies and blood. It’s been shown to mess up hormone levels.

I’ve been off jerking for over a week and it’s just insane the difference I feel. Looking at women is like, a high. I don’t feel anxiety at all. I don’t feel low energy. Im more creative, more social. The testosterone boost is invaluable. I can’t go back. First it was quitting porn then I finally built up the strength for nofap.

It perfectly explains why guys who lift a lot and juice go on about these confidence differences. It’s not their ego from a visual standpoint, it’s pure testosterone.

It’s really sad men are missing out on an entire experience of masculinity like this.


As far as the OP, the answer is anti-aging. A general rule in science is it is way, way, way harder to undo something than it is to prevent it. Look up David Sinclair’s Harvard Lab studies. He’s gotten elderly mice to beat young mice on treadmills just sustaining the natural biological processes that sustain athleticism and health - through certain drugs and compounds.

It does how ever take some god level foresight for a young guy to be in peak condition and decide to take something that simply sustains him, knowing that’s the goal. That’s not an exciting goal.

[Kblaze8855]

.As far as the OP, the answer is anti-aging. A general rule in science is it is way, way, way harder to undo something than it is to prevent it. Look up David Sinclair’s Harvard Lab studies. He’s gotten elderly mice to beat young mice on treadmills just sustaining the natural biological processes that sustain athleticism and health - through certain drugs and compounds.

This is what I was looking for. I’ll have to do some reading. There’s always someone working on immortality.

[Kblaze8855]

Yeah, pretty much. The quality of the genetic pool is subtly declining and will continue to do so.

I also think there's a huge ontogenic influence as well. I think the Sonny Listons of the world have become less common. Hard manual labor, particularly early in life, builds a particular kind of natural physical development. One that the weight room can't quite emulate.

I'm never surprised when I hear that a physical specimen grew up on a farm. A lot of NFL/NCAA linemen come from farms in the Mid-West.

Liston was basically worked as a slave by his dad; he used him as a beast of labor. Max Baer worked at his dad's butcher shop, hauling heavy carcasses all day long. Francis Ngannou was digging sand all day long to help support his family.

Epigenetics is a real thing. The things we do in our lifetime are absolutely modifying our genetics.

Kids these days are growing up playing video games and socializing through smartphones, apps, webcams, and computers. It was already bad for kids in the '90s and '00s, but at least they largely had to leave the house to socialize. The progression of the internet and smartphones has taken things a step further I feel.

Might get even worse if Zuckerberg's Metaverse dream is a success.

I feel like there’s evidence of this with what people call old Man strength. I’m just old enough that when I was a kid the old people were in some cases the children of straight up slaves. Remember the last American slaves died recently as hell. The last slaves died in the early 70s. It’s weird to think about but people like Michael Jordan and maybe even early part of the Shaq generation were on this planet with living American slaves. I knew a lot of people from really like….old mentalities and backgrounds.

My grandfathers oldest brother was a share cropper who grew up in slave shacks(though not born a slave of course…). He was tiny but If he grabbed you to stop you running around the house it was as if you slammed into a brick wall. He could stop you dead and pick you up and you’re shaking in the air like a doll and you don’t even see effort on his face. Just a hard ass old man with hands like a Vice grip chiseled out of granite.

My grandfather hated him because he was always so deferential around white people because of his upbringing and my papa had none of that back down in him. My grandpa moved to Harlem at one point and was running around doing what I’m pretty sure was some gangster shit based on the pictures I’ve seen.

Polar opposites but both just had a toughness of character and hands you just don’t see in modern dudes. These were some plow the field, draw water from the well, no days off, no hobby, no soft activity men who went to WW2 and wouldn’t tell stories. I literally did not know what part of the war my grandfather was even in until after he died. All that quiet tough guy shit is almost over with in our society.

[Im Still Ballin]

I really believe it’s plastic. All the microplastic in our bodies and blood. It’s been shown to mess up hormone levels.

I’ve been off jerking for over a week and it’s just insane the difference I feel. Looking at women is like, a high. I don’t feel anxiety at all. I don’t feel low energy. Im more creative, more social. The testosterone boost is invaluable. I can’t go back. First it was quitting porn then I finally built up the strength for nofap.

It perfectly explains why guys who lift a lot and juice go on about these confidence differences. It’s not their ego from a visual standpoint, it’s pure testosterone.

It’s really sad men are missing out on an entire experience of masculinity like this.

Do you think plastics have that great of an influence? I remember reading that anogenital distance for newborns has been decreasing over the years.

I think the sedentary lifestyle aspect can be expanded to a greater notion of self-domestication over hundreds of thousands of years. Our hominid evolution has entailed progressive neoteny; a deconditioning, gracilization of sorts.

Based on the dating of the fossil record, archaeologists have concluded that self-domestication likely occurred during the Pleistocene, over 300,000 years ago. Using the fossil record to compare Homo sapiens to pre-sapiens ancestors, archaeologists observed many of the same telling phenotypic characteristics that emerge as a consequence of self-domestication in animals.

These features include diminished sexual dimorphism, smaller tooth size, reduction of the cranium, and smaller body size. H. sapiens fossils also demonstrated the flattening of brow-ridge projection and shortening of faces.

Hunter-gatherers had big heavier, denser bone structures than farmers. They had broader jaws and significantly fewer dental issues.

But even they couldn't compare to the hominids 150,000+ before.

New research across thousands of years of human evolution shows that our skeletons have become much lighter and more fragile since the invention of agriculture - a result of our increasingly sedentary lifestyles as we shifted from foraging to farming.

The new study, published today in the journal PNAS, shows that, while human hunter-gatherers from around 7,000 years ago had bones comparable in strength to modern orangutans, farmers from the same area over 6,000 years later had significantly lighter and weaker bones that would have been more susceptible to breaking.

Bone mass was around 20% higher in the foragers - the equivalent to what an average person would lose after three months of weightlessness in space.

After ruling out diet differences and changes in body size as possible causes, researchers have concluded that reductions in physical activity are the root cause of degradation in human bone strength across millennia. It is a trend that is reaching dangerous levels, they say, as people do less with their bodies today than ever before.

“Contemporary humans live in a cultural and technological milieu incompatible with our evolutionary adaptations. There’s seven million years of hominid evolution geared towards action and physical activity for survival, but it’s only in the last say 50 to 100 years that we’ve been so sedentary - dangerously so,” said co-author Dr Colin Shaw from the University of Cambridge’s Phenotypic Adaptability, Variation and Evolution (PAVE) Research Group.

“Sitting in a car or in front of a desk is not what we have evolved to do.”

The researchers x-rayed samples of human femur bones from the archaeological record, along with femora from other primate species, focusing on the inside of the femoral head: the ball at the top of the femur which fits into the pelvis to form the hip joint, one of the most load-bearing bone connections in the body.

Two types of tissue form bone: the cortical or ‘hard’ bone shell coating the outside, and the trabecular or ‘spongy’ bone: the honeycomb-like mesh encased within cortical shell that allows flexibility but is also vulnerable to fracture.

The researchers analysed the trabecular bone from the femoral head of four distinct archaeological human populations representing mobile hunter-gatherers and sedentary agriculturalists, all found in the same area of the US state of Illinois (and likely to be genetically similar as a consequence).

The trabecular structure is very similar in all populations, with one notable exception: within the mesh, hunter-gatherers have a much higher amount of actual bone relative to air.

“Trabecular bone has much greater plasticity than other bone, changing shape and direction depending on the loads imposed on it; it can change structure from being pin or rod-like to much thicker, almost plate-like. In the hunter-gatherer bones, everything was thickened,” said Shaw.

This thickening is the result of constant loading on the bone from physical activity as hunter-gatherers roamed the landscape seeking sustenance. This fierce exertion would result in minor damage that caused the bone mesh to grow back ever stronger and thicker throughout life - building to a ‘peak point’ of bone strength which counter-balanced the deterioration of bones with age.

Shaw believes there are valuable lessons to be learnt from the skeletons of our prehistoric predecessors. “You can absolutely morph even your bones so that they deal with stress and strain more effectively. Hip fractures, for example, don’t have to happen simply because you get older if you build your bone strength up earlier in life, so that as you age it never drops below that level where fractures can easily occur.”

Other theories for humans evolving a lighter, more fragile skeleton include changes in diet or selection for a more efficient, lighter skeleton, which was never reversed.

While the initial switch to farming did cause a dip in human health due to monoculture diets that lacked variety, the populations tested were unaffected by this window in history. “Of course we need a level of calcium to maintain bone heath, but beyond that level excess calcium isn’t necessary,” said Shaw.

The research also counters the theory that, at some point in human evolution, our bones just became lighter - perhaps because there wasn’t enough food to support a denser skeleton. “If that was true, human skeletons would be entirely distinct from other living primates. We’ve shown that hunter-gatherers fall right in line with primates of a similar body size. Modern human skeletons are not systemically fragile; we are not constrained by our anatomy.”

“The fact is, we’re human, we can be as strong as an orangutan - we’re just not, because we are not challenging our bones with enough loading, predisposing us to have weaker bones so that, as we age, situations arise where bones are breaking when, previously, they would not have” Shaw said.

While the 7,000-year-old foragers had vastly stronger bones than the 700-year-old farmers, Shaw says that neither competes with even earlier hominids from around 150,000 years ago. “Something is going on in the distant past to create bone strength that outguns anything in the last 10,000 years.”

The next step for Shaw and colleagues will be to provide insight into the kind of mobility that gave our ancient ancestors such powerful physical strength.

I have no doubt there were some legitimate bigfoot mother****ers back in the day.

[Kblaze8855]

I went through the Smithsonian recently when I ran down to DC while vacationing in Baltimore and some of those skulls of the older species of man were wild. 1 on 1 they might take us even at half the size.