A Case for Kobe over LeBron...

[RRR3]

I can’t believe OP is actually comparing Kobe to LeBron in 2012. That is like comparing Zach Lavine to Giannis right now. Sorry LeBron constantly being compared to your childhood idol makes you poop your adult diapers, OP, but I doubt it’s gonna stop anytime soon.

[Shogon]

The NBA isn't 1 v 5. The amount of nuance that goes into comparing individual players' stats against specific teams is too much for the human mind to comprehend.

Suffice it to say, these players did not have the same rosters around them. The exponential amount of factors that go into team success and not only team success but how those rosters matched up with the other rosters we're comparing them to is just... well... it really can't be accounted for or known to the human mind definitively. It's all speculatory.

But Kobe had a better team in 2008, 2009, 2010. LeBron in 2011 was the biggest blemish of his career, and LeBron in 2012 smoked him, since we're breaking their performances down to just stats according to you.

Like someone else pointed out, LeBron has been better than Kobe since 2009 at the least imo. Honestly I would put it before that, but I understand why some wouldn't. I honestly think LeBron has arguably been a better basketball player since about his sophomore season.

The thing that confuses people is Kobe's individual scoring.

A lot of fans' viewpoint on the game boils down to how impressive and how aesthetically pleasing of an individual scorer someone is. This is how they rank players. This is why Ja Morant go so much hype from the same type of people that would say that Kobe was clearly the best player in the league, even though he arguably never was and probably never was for a single season.

This is why they can't comprehend that Mortant's team would be substantially more successful without him during the season and thus the mental gymnastics to justify it are off the charts batshit crazy all over the place. Their brains literally do not understand the concept of team dynamics and the fact that different pieces fit differently and chemistry is something that can't be understood on paper by our puny minds. Their level of understanding is juvenile. Truth be told, however, even the substantially smarter people have a surface level of understanding about all of this compared to what the 'objective truth' is behind all of it. It is unknowable by us. We are all stupid and anyone who says otherwise is lying or they're among the dumbest of us all.


But all that aside? Kobe is both an all time great AND he's also the most overrated player in league history because of the teams he played with, the market he played in, because he snarled, because of his scoring ability and because he was fearless in the clutch moments despite being substantially less effective in said moments. The amount of unjustified all defensive teams he got just off of reputation alone is insane. I think because he tried to mimic MJ so incredibly heavily people just gravitated towards him. IDK. Insane work ethic, extremely overrated talent.

Unbelievably, some people truly believe in their heart of hearts he was a top 5 player of all time and some people are actually stupid enough to believe he was the best basketball player that ever lived. Unreal as it is, these people actually do exist.

Kobe Bryant is a nixed Lakers/Hornets trade away from having a mediocre career and being out of the top 20 all time. LeBron could have 0 titles and he would still be considered top 15 at the worst of all time by everyone, including the people that hate him.

[StrongLurk]

Kobe is one of the GOATs, of course you can make a case for him over Lebron...it's just not a good case.

[3ba11]

You're missing context OP

Lebron averaged 21 on 34% for the last 3 games of the 2010 2nd Round to lose a 2-1 lead as a massive favorite.

Kobe was nowhere near this bad

Same thing with the 2011 Mavs - Kobe wasn't anywhere near as bad as Lebron's goat choke job - Lebron was literally scared and can't be compared to Kobe

Then Lebron shot 35% against the 08' Celtics and 07' Spurs? Again, that's nowhere near Kobe

35% is complete wetting the bed and can't be compared to Kobe..

Lebron was just another Luka-style ball-dominator and massive loser until the "decision" to stack the deck - so he isn't a winner and never learned how to win.. nothing compared to Kobe

[LeGoat4Life]

There is no such consensus. In fact, it's the opposite. You won't find a list with Kobe over LeBron. Stop being stubborn and at least admit that much.

Only delusional kids such as yourself believe that

Majority of the world population have Kobe over Lebron

For example no one in China has Lebron in top 5. Most don’t even know who Lebron is

It’s basically Mj and Kobe

[1987_Lakers]

Only people that rank Kobe ahead of LeBron are Bron haters.

[RRR3]

Only people that rank Kobe ahead of LeBron are Bron haters.

Just a coincidence I’m sure!

[Johnny32]

Only delusional kids such as yourself believe that

Majority of the world population have Kobe over Lebron

For example no one in China has Lebron in top 5. Most don’t even know who Lebron is

It’s basically Mj and Kobe

You know how big he is over here in the States. In China (last September) we had a players-only dinner at, I think, Morton’s Steakhouse inside the hotel. We go up there and he’s telling stories about last year’s team and this year, and getting us all ready. We leave, and when we leave, we go down the elevator (of the restaurant, inside the Ritz-Carlton in Shanghai). There might have been 4,000 people chanting his name. And they rushed the elevator to get through; security couldn’t hold everyone back. And one of Kyle Kuzma’s managers was trying to hold people back, and the weight of the people pushing was so much, he basically dislocated his shoulder and had to have surgery.

Dudley would admit that he has never played with anyone who could cause that kind of scene:

… And they kept chanting his name, “King James, King James.” I even got a video of it early on because I was behind him. And I was like, it was so crazy, they were rushing him. … It was mayhem. That’s when I knew this year would be special. I’ve never played with anyone, even though Jordan drafted me, I’ve never played with anyone else that would have something like that.

cry moar virgin.

[HoopsNY]

OP throws a fit when Steph Curry is compared to MJ but thinks comparing LeBron to Kobe is reasonable

I think you mean I threw a "fit" when Steph was compared to LeBron. That is absolutely absurd. Again, why do you keep confusing me with other posters? You have a problem bro.

[HoopsNY]

I can’t believe OP is actually comparing Kobe to LeBron in 2012. That is like comparing Zach Lavine to Giannis right now. Sorry LeBron constantly being compared to your childhood idol makes you poop your adult diapers, OP, but I doubt it’s gonna stop anytime soon.

I used 2008-12 because they both faced the same teams. While you're right that they're not exactly an exact comparison, it's probably the closest that we'll get to a fair comparison since they both contain peak years and against the same competition.

But yea, even at age 33, Kobe put up 31/5/4/2 on 43% against that OKC team, including 42 pts on 55% shooting in the elimination game. And what's with the comparison to Zach LaVine? Are you serious right now?

Kobe 2012

All-Star
All-NBA 1st team
All-Defensive 2nd Team
4th in MVP voting

Compare that to Lavine who for his entire career has All-Star game selections and what else? But yea, nice comparison there.

So yea, it's closer than I thought. Though again, I'd say it leans towards LeBron. Why is that a crime?

[HoopsNY]

You're missing context OP

Lebron averaged 21 on 34% for the last 3 games of the 2010 2nd Round to lose a 2-1 lead as a massive favorite.

Kobe was nowhere near this bad

Same thing with the 2011 Mavs - Kobe wasn't anywhere near as bad as Lebron's goat choke job - Lebron was literally scared and can't be compared to Kobe

Then Lebron shot 35% against the 08' Celtics and 07' Spurs? Again, that's nowhere near Kobe

35% is complete wetting the bed and can't be compared to Kobe..

Lebron was just another Luka-style ball-dominator and massive loser until the "decision" to stack the deck - so he isn't a winner and never learned how to win.. nothing compared to Kobe

If we go deeper into the numbers, I'm sure all of this can be pointed out. I'm not negating what you're saying here, but I don't think it overrides everything else. I still lean to LeBron having the edge over Kobe. But now, I don't think the gap is as wide.

[HoopsNY]

Only people that rank Kobe ahead of LeBron are Bron haters.

I think you have to stop with the extremities here. You come off as a Kobe hater. Poll all the players that faced both Kobe and LeBron, if I'm not mistaken, the overwhelming majority favored Kobe. In addition, they did a poll just a year or two ago and the majority of current NBA players put Kobe over LeBron.

This doesn't mean it's true, of course, but that's why we have forums lol. Players will rate whoever they rate and have their reasons. We tend to look at numbers, accolades, and what is apparent as the be all end all, while most players don't account for what we account for. It's the way the world works.

In this respect, when looking at 2008-12, I believe the conversation is far more nuanced and closer between the two players than some are willing to to admit.

[SouBeachTalents]

I think you have to stop with the extremities here. You come off as a Kobe hater. Poll all the players that faced both Kobe and LeBron, if I'm not mistaken, the overwhelming majority favored Kobe. In addition, they did a poll just a year or two ago and the majority of current NBA players put Kobe over LeBron.

This doesn't mean it's true, of course, but that's why we have forums lol. Players will rate whoever they rate and have their reasons. We need to look at numbers, accolades, and what is apparent as the be all end all, while most players don't account for what we account for. It's the way the world works.

In this respect, when looking at 2008-12, I believe the conversation is far more nuanced and closer between the two players than some are willing to to admit.

This is just completely untrue To make this a more legitimate debate you need to remove 2011 & 2012 from the discussion. Outside of one atrocious series LeBron was undoubtedly better, and frankly much better than Kobe was over those 2 years. He was decisively better in '09 & '10 too, but at least Kobe was still playing at an ATG level those years.

[RRR3]

LeBron in 2012: RPM 6.88, RAPM 3.48, BPM 10.9 , ON/OFF +14.0,

Kobe: RPM 2.74, RAPM 0.87, 3.3 BPM, ON/OFF 5.2




Kobe’s TS% against the Thunder was a shitty 51.5% so I’m not sure why OP is talking up that series as if he played well and using caveman measures of efficiency like FG%, considering he wasn’t a good defender at this point and also gagged away numerous games that series in crunch time. That was also a year he was frequently criticized for forcing up shots at the expense of Bynum and Gasol. LeBron was pretty unanimously considered the best player in 2012, Kobe was fringe top 10.


I could compare the other years and it would be similarly lopsided but 2012 just stuck out because that’s just an insane year to argue Kobe was even close to LeBron.

[RRR3]

I think you mean I threw a "fit" when Steph was compared to LeBron. That is absolutely absurd. Again, why do you keep confusing me with other posters? You have a problem bro.

Steph has a significantly better argument versus LeBron than Kobe does if we’re just talking how good of a player they actually were and not career achievements so weird take.