A Case for Kobe over LeBron...

[HoopsNY]

thx for bringing up svg, op. it's been fun!

Yea, you can choose to disregard ORL not doubling LeBron every chance they could, but believe what you want.

[eliteballer]

LeBron's a juicer, do not compare him to Kobe.

[iamgine]

I think LeBron > Kobe both for a career and as an individual player, but one thing that is interesting is if you isolate the teams they both faced from 2008-12 in the playoffs.

2008

Kobe vs. BOS: 26/5/5/3 on 41/32/80
LeBron vs. BOS: 27/6/8/2 on 35/23/76

2009

Kobe vs. ORL: 32/6/7/1 on 43/36/81
LeBron vs. ORL: 39/8/8/1 on 48/30/75

2010

Kobe vs. BOS: 29/8/4/2 41/32/88
LeBron vs. BOS: 29/9/7/2 on 45/27/74

2011

Kobe vs. DAL: 23/3/3/2 on 46/23/80
LeBron vs. DAL: 18/7/7/2 on 48/32/60

2012

Kobe vs. OKC: 31/5/4/2 on 43/11/86
LeBron vs. OKC: 29/10/7/2 47/19/83

Both players were in their peaks with Kobe experiencing a slight decline after 2010. LeBron's series against Orlando is the best, though Stan Van Gundy admitted to leaving LeBron and worrying more about his cast's shooting. I still think LeBron has the longevity and career argument, but as individual players, they seem to be a lot closer than even I was willing to admit.

I still give LeBron the edge when looking at it, but it's not as drastic as I originally believed, especially when you consider the formation of the super-team in 2011 and 2012. Given Kobe's success during that time though, it does beg to ask the question.

Meh arguments can be made in any way to make it not close.

For example, in 2008, Kobe had Gasol/Odom and lost to Celtics in 6 while being blown out. Lebron had nobody even close to Gasol and pushed the Celtics to a VERY close game 7.

[HoopsNY]

LeBron's a juicer, do not compare him to Kobe.

No proof of this. Try to address the actual subject please.

[eliteballer]

Kobe also wasn't anywhere near his peak in 10 or 11. I'd argue 9 as well.

He was practically playing on one knee.

[eliteballer]

Also compare their overall playoff stats Kobe 2008-2010 and LeBron 2011-2014...despite Kobe being the same age in 2008 LeRoid was in 2014..

[1987_Lakers]

Yea, you can choose to disregard ORL not doubling LeBron every chance they could, but believe what you want.

To be fair, LeBron is rarely double teamed because of his passing ability.

[HoopsNY]

Kobe also wasn't anywhere near his peak in 10 or 11. I'd argue 9 as well.

He was practically playing on one knee.

Yea you can account for that but I don't think the difference in performance is huge, it probably draws it a little closer though I do agree.

Also compare their overall playoff stats Kobe 2008-2010 and LeBron 2011-2014...despite Kobe being the same age in 2008 LeRoid was in 2014..

I specifically focused on the years I mentioned since they both faced the same teams.

[HoopsNY]

To be fair, LeBron is rarely double teamed because of his passing ability.

Yea, I guess it matters here because the points seem inflated, but there is a context to it. You're not wrong though, but I do think SVG's strategy should be accounted for when you see the 38.5 PPG.

[HoopsNY]

I think LeBron's offensive game seems to be better, but how much of that coincides with the era of the three point revolution and relaxed defenses? I don't think LeBron was better offensively after 2015, despite the numbers showing otherwise.

It's like the argument I make for Steph. Steph won MVP in 2015 averaging 23.8 PPG. I don't think Steph from say, last season, was better than he was then. It's just the game as opened up a lot more as the years have gone on.

I mean, look at guys like Rondo. From 2007-15, Rondo shot 26% from three. From 2016-22, he's shooting 36%, a full 10% higher.

Look at KD from 2017-22, is he really better than KD from say, 2011-16? Or has the game evolved? And this is with a torn achilles.

1987_Lakers, I'm interested in your take on this. I might be wrong but when we see league-wide improvements, including from players who preceded 2015-16, then that doesn't tell me that any particular player is automatically better offensively now, but because there are additional factors that influence the overall offensive output.

Look at Chris Paul, who is another interesting case:

Paul '06-'14: .357 3pt% | .575 TS%
Paul '15-22: .377 3pt% | .592 TS%

Paul just led the league in assists this year with 10.8; that's his highest assist total since 2014, and he's 36.

I say all that to say this, if you put peak LeBron from say, 2009, in today's game....good God. They might have to change the rules to stop him.

[1987_Lakers]

I think LeBron's offensive game seems to be better, but how much of that coincides with the era of the three point revolution and relaxed defenses? I don't think LeBron was better offensively after 2015, despite the numbers showing otherwise.

It's like the argument I make for Steph. Steph won MVP in 2015 averaging 23.8 PPG. I don't think Steph from say, last season, was better than he was then. It's just the game as opened up a lot more as the years have gone on.

I mean, look at guys like Rondo. From 2007-15, Rondo shot 26% from three. From 2016-22, he's shooting 36%, a full 10% higher.

Look at KD from 2017-22, is he really better than KD from say, 2011-16? Or has the game evolved? And this is with a torn achilles.

it could be alot of factors.

- Nutrition is at an all-time high, which is why you see many players still playing elite at an older age
- Players tend to shoot better as they age, see Jason Kidd
- With more spacing in today's league, it gives you more open shots, less defensive players to help over

[HoopsNY]

it could be alot of factors.

- Nutrition is at an all-time high, which is why you see many players still playing elite at an older age
- Players tend to shoot better as they age, see Jason Kidd
- With more spacing in today's league, it gives you more open shots, less defensive players to help over

I don't think nutrition is a factor, really. I mean, yea, in terms of keeping players healthy, but not on the game in and of itself.

Kidd is an interesting sample, but it kinda proves my point. Kidd's 3PA from 1995-01 was 3 per game and he shot the ball at a 32% clip. From 2002-13 he attempted almost 5 3PA a game, shooting at a 36% clip.

Volume generally helps players. My point is, it's not a testimony to a player's offensive abilities per se, rather on how the game evolves and how players evolve with it. I mean, just look at big men like Horford, Lopez, M. Gasol, or even Pau Gasol:

Brook Lopez from 3:

2009-16: 3-31 (10%)
2017-21: 649-1,883 (35%)

Marc Gasol from 3:

2009-16: 12-66 (18%)
2017-21: 419-1,131 (37%)

Pau Gasol from 3:

2002-14: 38-154 (25%)
2015-19: 141-332 (43%)

Al Horford from 3:

2008-15: 21-65 (32%)
2016-21: 588-1,627 (36%)

Volume is a pretty decent indicator and I think as the game has evolved, players may seem to be better offensively, but I think perception is deceptive without context. The game is just different now.

[SATAN]

What's with all the Kobe worship over the past couple months?

He's dead. He hasn't gotten better since he died. I don't want to knock Kobe fans but reality is reality.

[2much_knowledge]

The excuse was always the 2 extra assist and rebounds per and the mvps

The same 2 extra stats that prime westbrook had over bron year after year but no one cared about

And clowning kobe for having 1 mvp but some worship shaq who also has 1 mvp

[RRR3]

OP throws a fit when Steph Curry is compared to MJ but thinks comparing LeBron to Kobe is reasonable