A Case for Kobe over LeBron...

[HoopsNY]

I think LeBron > Kobe both for a career and as an individual player, but one thing that is interesting is if you isolate the teams they both faced from 2008-12 in the playoffs.

2008

Kobe vs. BOS: 26/5/5/3 on 41/32/80
LeBron vs. BOS: 27/6/8/2 on 35/23/76

2009

Kobe vs. ORL: 32/6/7/1 on 43/36/81
LeBron vs. ORL: 39/8/8/1 on 48/30/75

2010

Kobe vs. BOS: 29/8/4/2 41/32/88
LeBron vs. BOS: 29/9/7/2 on 45/27/74

2011

Kobe vs. DAL: 23/3/3/2 on 46/23/80
LeBron vs. DAL: 18/7/7/2 on 48/32/60

2012

Kobe vs. OKC: 31/5/4/2 on 43/11/86
LeBron vs. OKC: 29/10/7/2 47/19/83

Both players were in their peaks with Kobe experiencing a slight decline after 2010. LeBron's series against Orlando is the best, though Stan Van Gundy admitted to leaving LeBron and worrying more about his cast's shooting. I still think LeBron has the longevity and career argument, but as individual players, they seem to be a lot closer than even I was willing to admit.

I still give LeBron the edge when looking at it, but it's not as drastic as I originally believed, especially when you consider the formation of the super-team in 2011 and 2012. Given Kobe's success during that time though, it does beg to ask the question.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe was better in '08, LeBron was better every season after that, and after 2010 it's seriously not even close. As absolutely atrocious as LeBron was in 2011, Kobe was horrible against Dallas too.

[HoopsNY]

Kobe was better in '08, LeBron was better every season after that, and after 2010 it's seriously not even close. As absolutely atrocious as LeBron was in 2011, Kobe was horrible against Dallas too.

Yea I understand what you mean. I'm not really looking at the entire sample inclusive of regular season and the entire playoffs. I think what's interesting is how close they were against these teams. Kobe won 2 titles and 3 trips to the finals without super-teams, though, which I think makes up for any gaps that I may have once held against him.

For me, it's a lot closer than I originally imagined given how they both performed against each team. And while LeBron was in his peak, Kobe was coming out of his, which should be accounted for as well.

[LeGoat4Life]

A case?

There was never a case

The general consensus has always been Kobe > Lebron

[Johnny32]

so the case for kobe is...lebron was better in every series vs a common opponent besides one...even without a consistent jumper. lol brilliant.

[1987_Lakers]

Does anyone else think LeBron hit his offensive peak from 2016-2018? He had the total package in those years while still having crazy athleticism. I mean, you can make an argument for it.

LeBron improved his jumper in Miami, but alot of those series you listed happened when LeBron wasn't at his offensive peak IMO, he relied alot on his athleticism from '08-'10, he later added more skill.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yea I understand what you mean. I'm not really looking at the entire sample inclusive of regular season and the entire playoffs. I think what's interesting is how close they were against these teams. Kobe won 2 titles and 3 trips to the finals without super-teams, though, which I think makes up for any gaps that I may have once held against him.

For me, it's a lot closer than I originally imagined given how they both performed against each team. And while LeBron was in his peak, Kobe was coming out of his, which should be accounted for as well.

Sure, historically Kobe didn't have a super team, but outside of maybe Boston he had the best supporting cast in the league during his title runs, and undoubtedly a better one than LeBron did over that same period. The individual gap between the two of them is so decisive you'd have to focus almost solely on team accomplishments to give Kobe the nod for '09 & '10.

And 2011 & esp 2012 are frankly an insult to even try to compare the two of them

[HoopsNY]

Does anyone else think LeBron hit his offensive peak from 2016-2018? He had the total package in those years while still having crazy athleticism. I mean, you can make an argument for it.

LeBron improved his jumper in Miami, but alot of those series you listed happened when LeBron wasn't at his offensive peak IMO, he relied alot on his athleticism from '08-'10, he later added more skill.

I think LeBron's offensive game seems to be better, but how much of that coincides with the era of the three point revolution and relaxed defenses? I don't think LeBron was better offensively after 2015, despite the numbers showing otherwise.

It's like the argument I make for Steph. Steph won MVP in 2015 averaging 23.8 PPG. I don't think Steph from say, last season, was better than he was then. It's just the game as opened up a lot more as the years have gone on.

I mean, look at guys like Rondo. From 2007-15, Rondo shot 26% from three. From 2016-22, he's shooting 36%, a full 10% higher.

Look at KD from 2017-22, is he really better than KD from say, 2011-16? Or has the game evolved? And this is with a torn achilles.

[HoopsNY]

Sure, historically Kobe didn't have a super team, but outside of maybe Boston he had the best supporting cast in the league during his title runs, and undoubtedly a better one than LeBron did over that same period. The individual gap between the two of them is so decisive you'd have to focus almost solely on team accomplishments to give Kobe the nod for '09 & '10.

And 2011 & esp 2012 are frankly an insult to even try to compare the two of them

Well we're looking at individual performances too keep in mind. If Kobe gets the "his team was better" for the earlier years, then LeBron gets that nod for 2011 and 2012, too.

Again, I'm still convinced that LeBron has the edge. But before, I had it by a very wide margin. Now, I'm not so sure that gap is so big.

[HoopsNY]

A case?

There was never a case

The general consensus has always been Kobe > Lebron

There is no such consensus. In fact, it's the opposite. You won't find a list with Kobe over LeBron. Stop being stubborn and at least admit that much.

[HoopsNY]

so the case for kobe is...lebron was better in every series vs a common opponent besides one...even without a consistent jumper. lol brilliant.

Meh, just barely if you value some things over others. For one, you're not looking at the value of a super-team, which you'll never admit, I get that. But you're also not weighing Stan Van Gundy's strategy in the series against ORL, which again, comes as no surprise, since you hate Kobe.

[Johnny32]

Van Gundy is actually one of the only two Eastern coaches to defeat James in a playoff series dating back to 2009. His Orlando Magic knocked James and the Cavs out in the East Finals (James and the Cavs fell to Doc Rivers and the Celtics in 2010, and that's it - James hasn't lost a series in the East since).

James averaged 38.5 points against the Magic in the 2009 conference finals, but Orlando won the series in six games. The Cavs, of course, also lost the NBA Finals in six games last year to the Golden State Warriors, during which James averaged 35.8 points and took a career-high 196 shots for a playoff series.

So, is that the "book" on James - give him space to score and make sure no one else beats you?

Van Gundy says it isn't, or, at least, it shouldn't work against the Cavs as currently constructed.

"I mean, he didn't have Kevin Love and he didn't have Kyrie Irving (in the Finals, because of injuries), so that's a little different team than who we're going to be playing," Van Gundy said. "And he didn't have those guys when we played them in 09, either. So it's a whole different thing. You can't just go in and have a blanket strategy of how you want to play LeBron James."

Oh, and one more thing.

"And we didn't try to let LeBron get his, he just got it," Van Gundy said, speaking about the 2009 series. "He got us for 36 a game. Believe me, we didn't go in and say we're letting LeBron get his, we tried like hell to play him."

lol

[Johnny32]

“LeBron just made it so difficult. The one thing I don’t leave this game with is any idea whatsoever what to do with him. As a coach you’re supposed to have some idea — I don’t have a clue. I don’t. When we double-teamed him, he made the right play every time and they made shots. When we didn’t double-team him, he made every jumpshot he took, it seemed like. He gets the ball to the basket and draws fouls. You would like to come out of Game 1 and say ‘at least we found a gameplan we think will work’ I can’t say I’ve done that. He’s unbelievable and he was incredible tonight.”

lol

[Johnny32]

thx for bringing up svg, op. it's been fun!

[HoopsNY]

“LeBron just made it so difficult. The one thing I don’t leave this game with is any idea whatsoever what to do with him. As a coach you’re supposed to have some idea — I don’t have a clue. I don’t. When we double-teamed him, he made the right play every time and they made shots. When we didn’t double-team him, he made every jumpshot he took, it seemed like. He gets the ball to the basket and draws fouls. You would like to come out of Game 1 and say ‘at least we found a gameplan we think will work’ I can’t say I’ve done that. He’s unbelievable and he was incredible tonight.”

lol

It's a different tone here than what he said here....

In the conference finals, of course, they faced LeBron, who averaged 38.5 points a game, eight rebounds, and eight assists. This was all part of the plan. At the time, the Magic had, counting an exhibition trip to China, played James nine times over two seasons and had success by not overreacting to him. “If you look into the rest of my coaching career, I clearly didn’t have any formula to beat LeBron,” Van Gundy said. “Our theory defensively, we wanted him to be more of a scorer and less of a guy to help those guys play well. Those other guys needed LeBron to play well. He put up absolutely huge numbers, but we had more overall talent.”

“Hedo didn’t have the physical strength or talent of Giannis, but this was a 6-foot-10 guy who handled and passed like a point guard and shot the 3. Even to this day, he’s on a short list of guys who could do that. There just haven’t been many guys like him in league history.” —Stan Van Gundy
“We didn’t ever change our principles, whether it was Hedo or Pietrus guarding him. We were coming to help, we weren’t leaving people on an island, but we weren’t going to double-team LeBron, we weren’t blitzing his pick-and-rolls, we were not double-teaming him in the post or in his back-ins. That’s tough on the guys guarding him, and I’m sure they wanted a few more double-teams, but that’s the way we’d played him for two years and had success.”