Now that Luka's ball-dominance is getting swept like I said, here's a follow-up....

[3ba11]

Does Kevin Durant suck at basketball?

Durant is a lot better than Luka, that's for sure - KD always killed it with a good coach (Kerr) and even carried CancerBrook and a nobody coach to the Finals in 2012 - Luka wouldn't do shit with CancerBrook

I think Luka's brand of ball is worse than Lebron's - that's saying something because Lebron is the shining example of a bad brand causing favored talent to underachieve - his preseason favorites fell to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16')

[DMAVS41]

Durant is a lot better than Luka, that's for sure - KD always killed it with a good coach (Kerr) and even carried CancerBrook and a nobody coach to the Finals in 2012 - Luka wouldn't do shit with CancerBrook

I think Luka's brand of ball is worse than Lebron's - that's saying something because Lebron is the shining example of a bad brand causing favored talent to underachieve - his preseason favorites fell to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16')

And yet...Durant can't win a damn thing without a super team....

[RRR3]

And yet...Durant can't win a damn thing without a super team....

Can’t even consistently play well in the playoffs without one tbh

[kawhileonard2]

And yet...Durant can't win a damn thing without a super team....

Nor Lebron. He has to switch teams to try to win and this with guys who won it all as the man.

[Micku]

You're saying that Luka just needs more talent around him, which is an all-star team strategy (talent-based winning) - anyone can do that - anyone can win with enough supporting talent, but only the best players learn how to actually win (brand of ball) and therefore don't need as much supporting talent.

The 11' Mavs and 04' Pistons didn't win with superior talent - they won with superior chemistry and brand of ball.. Similarly, the Spurs, Warriors and 90's Bulls developed the best brand in the league - that's how organic teams win, so Luka will have to learn brand of ball before he can win organically..

Unfortunately, his skillset prevents good teammate fits, chemistry or brand.. No one can win with a zero assisted rate - do you guys understand that?

Luka can't win like that unless he gets a super-team and it would still mostly lose.. So Luka can't do shit unless he learns to be an assist target, thereby elevating teammates

You think it's random coincidence that Wiggins became an all-star next to Curry?.. He'd be standing in the corner alongside Doncic and everyone would be shitting on him like his tenure in Minnesota

I'm not saying he needs a superteam. I'm saying he needs better talent than he already has around him. You either need talent or players that fit either within the system or your star player.

The 04 Pistons definitely have more talent than this team. And the 11 Mavs hit their peak at the right time.

But Luka is only 23. The Mavs weren't even expected to go this far. It's already very impressive that he turned his game up in the playoffs and the Mavs were able to get pass the Suns and the Jazz. But the GSW play style is just on another lvl.

I understand you saying about Luka and his ball dominance, but lets not act like you can't win with that style. It's an argument whatever or not that style maximize the team. I'm not saying I disagree, but I'm saying the squad that he has surrounding him is not going to cut it imo. They need to either get better with the chemistry, change their style, or find better talent.

And as people said, not everyone can win with superior talent. The Suns had better talent than the Mavs this year and lost. The Magic in 95, I think had better talent and lost. The Lakers in 98. The Thunder with KD, Westbrook. 84 Lakers lost against the the Celtics. They also lost against the Rockets. Miami lost against the Mavs in 11. Etc, etc.

[DMAVS41]

I'm not saying he needs a superteam. I'm saying he needs better talent than he already has around him. You either need talent or players that fit either within the system or your star player.

The 04 Pistons definitely have more talent than this team. And the 11 Mavs hit their peak at the right time.

But Luka is only 23. The Mavs weren't even expected to go this far. It's already very impressive that he turned his game up in the playoffs and the Mavs were able to get pass the Suns and the Jazz. But the GSW play style is just on another lvl.

I understand you saying about Luka and his ball dominance, but lets not act like you can't win with that style. It's an argument whatever or not that style maximize the team. I'm not saying I disagree, but I'm saying the squad that he has surrounding him is not going to cut it imo. They need to either get better with the chemistry, change their style, or find better talent.

And as people said, not everyone can win with superior talent. The Suns had better talent than the Mavs this year and lost. The Magic in 95, I think had better talent and lost. The Lakers in 98. The Thunder with KD, Westbrook. 84 Lakers lost against the the Celtics. They also lost against the Rockets. Miami lost against the Mavs in 11. Etc, etc.

Nobody without a huge bias looks at this Mavs supporting cast and says the problem is Luka and that they have enough to win a title.

They are really good, better than I thought they'd be...but they aren't title caliber.

They need a center and at least one more legit rotation player that isn't a defensive liability.

[RRR3]

All these Luka threads just confirm you think he’s a threat to surpass your hero Kobe on the all time list, OP.

[3ba11]

.
For reference:


09' Mo Will... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.080 WS/48.. 58.8 ts
89' Pippen.... 14.9 PER... 0.4 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.087 WS/48.. 52.4 ts
90' Pippen.... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48.. 56.1 ts

Nobody without a huge bias looks at this Mavs supporting cast and says the problem is Luka

No one said Wiggins would be an all-star addition - you would've been laughed off this forum if you said that before he arrived in the Bay Area

Curry's game simply allows guys to grow and play to capacity, while Luka would have an underwhelming team with Wiggins just like he did with Porzingas.

Essentially, this season is Luka's ceiling with anything but a super-team or another elite-scoring 1st option stud alongside him - their brand of you-turn-my-turn would yield lukewarm, underdog Finals teams and barely meet this expectation (aka 4/10.. oh wait.. wrong player ;)

that they have enough to win a title..

A good comparison for these Mavs would be the 89' Bulls assuming those Bulls never got better.. So imagine that those Bulls peaked in those ECF and never got better - maybe they make a Finals in a down year like the 21' Suns but they never get over the hump with a skillset that's only useful in a Doug Collins' offense.

That's where Luka is at right now..

And don't bother with the Pippen myths and fake media awards - it's funny because the 09' Cavs had the 3rd-ranked defense compared to 19th for the 90' Bulls, while Mo was far superior to Pippen across the board offensively (stats above).. So Lebron started with a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan beat him to titles - Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost again with homecourt in 10' despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win team.

The point is that Jordan's skillset allowed the development of a better brand of ball movement that elevated teammates more than ball-dominance.. This superior brand allowed winning titles without forming super-teams, while Lebron and Luka's ball-dominance requires super-teams.. We've seen it all before.

They need a center

The Warriors don't seem to need much of a center because they face worn down teams/offenses, which lowers their own defensive requirements.. Opponents are worn down by zippy ball movement, which leaves less capacity for offense as the game wears on - they eventually can't match the spurts and runs of the Warriors.

Otoh, defenses get to rest against Luka's ball-dominance, so they have more capacity for offense as the game or series progresses - Luka-ball and Lebron-ball require their teams to have maximum defensive requirements because the opponent isn't being worn down by a superior brand of ball.. Ball-dominance loses the attrition battle - the best defense is a good offense - a tenet of all competition.

[NBAGOAT]

Stop making these random comparisons. What current role player on the Mavs develops into a star like pippen did on another team? I said role player so I’m not counting brunson who has developed already as DMAVs said. Don’t put too much stock into 3 games vs a terrible Utah defense, most people think he would suddenly be an all star on like the Knicks.

Edit: also the warriors do very well at the center position with looney or dray as the small ball 5

[Phoenix]

Stop making these random comparisons. What current role player on the Mavs develops into a star like pippen did on another team? I said role player so I’m not counting brunson.

Oh man, why'd you go there? You've just opened the door to OP saying Brunson is better than Pippen.

[NBAGOAT]

Oh man, why'd you go there? You've just opened the door to OP saying Brunson is better than Pippen.

Lol my bad. I guess I’ll have to concede current brunson is better than young pippen

Edit: it is comical how 3ball glosses over 89 being pippens 2nd year and how it’s completely normal for a player to take a few years to develop. Brunson peaked this year he’s in year 4

[RRR3]

Oh man, why'd you go there? You've just opened the door to OP saying Brunson is better than Pippen.

He already said that the other day. “Porzingas” is better to according to him.

[DMAVS41]

So the first claim was that players can't develop with Luka...yet you call Brunson great...how did he develop into a great player playing his entire career next to Luka?

The next claim is that the Warriors don't need much of a center? They rely on Green / Looney...what are you talking about? Green / Looney is a great combo to have and if you switched Green / Looney for Powell / Maxi...the Mavs would easily win this series.

The next claim is that Lebron ball doesn't work...yet it did and does work and it beat the very team you say plays the best style.

Like I said before...in my time on here...people have made the following claims...

Dirk will never win. Lebron will never win. Giannis will never win. Now it is Luka will never win. Obviously I can't see the future and it is really hard to build teams in the NBA, especially in Dallas, but I'll say the same thing about Luka I did with Dirk. If he gets true championship level help...you'd be an idiot to bet against him.

We'll see how it all plays out.

[Full Court]

To be fair, Luka carrying this team to the conference finals is quite an achievement.

[Phoenix]

Lol my bad. I guess I’ll have to concede current brunson is better than young pippen

Edit: it is comical how 3ball glosses over 89 being pippens 2nd year and how it’s completely normal for a player to take a few years to develop. Brunson peaked this year he’s in year 4

3ball is arguing with hindsight. Back in 89 MJ was getting criticized as a ball hog with a 'bad brand of ball' that would never win a ring chasing scoring titles while his peers Bird and Magic were collecting rings. Eventually he 'begrudgingly' bought into a system( he didn't like the fact that it may cause a slight reduction in his scoring output, Phil Jackson is on record IIRC) that yielded the best team results because it maxed everyone else on the floor, while MJ could basically play the insurance role. I vividly remember some of those 90's games.....there were times MJ would hardly be involved in the offense at first ( past being a decoy) while they were dumping the ball into Cartwright trying to get him touches, or trying to get Horace an elbow shot or Paxson's jumper in rhythm...those are the players that need to be kept engaged and the best time is at the beginning, so they're there at the end. If the offense wasn't working, that's when MJ would take over.

It was a 'perfect' system as far as utilizing all components on the floor, but it took 6-7 years to get to that, for players to develop, coaching changes, for MJ to mature past being a solo act. 3ball argues as if MJ's ass wasn't getting swept the first 3 years of his career and then losing to the Pistons like clockwork 3 years in a row. Yeah MJ was the best player on the floor, just like Luka, but losing to the superior team. It was a process, the same process that Luka is going through now and having this clown make thread after thread about like this is unprecedented or that his obsession wasn't going through the exact same shit 35 years ago. Luka may go on to win a few titles, or he may not. In 1988, nobody knew if MJ would ever win so the 'I told you so' bullshit 3ball is pulling is disingenuous and intellectually dishonest. The funny thing is, Luka could for all we don't know win the title two years from now, then 3ball will do his 'now I'm gonna 180 and say Luka's top 10' schtick. Dude's a straight up jackass.

IMO these are the next steps in the process:

For Luka- Get in better shape, drop about 10-15 pounds to help with conditioning. I'd like to see him more off-ball( will address that below) and work on catch and shoots. Make quicker decisions with the ball, less pound the rock. Some of that is personnel, some of that is strategy, some of that is Luka's tendencies. The good thing, which the moron who made the thread seems to forget is Luka is 23 and has, literally, another decade at least of superstar play barring injury. Time is on his side, contrary to this fool acting like Luka has either maxed out already or can't move beyond how he plays now.

For the Mavs- they're on the right path moving forward. Kidd's insistence on stressing defense was important. They need a 'legit' 2nd all-star, ideally a playmaker that will allow Luka to be a better assist target and not have to be so responsible for generating everything. That evolves Luka, it evolves the offense. Another 3 and D guy would help. Brunson, Dimwiddie, Harddaway Jr are nice pieces, but them rotating between being the 2nd scorer behind Luka isn't going to win a title. Porzingis wasn't a championship level 2nd option either.