Looking at Kobe's finals stats along with his game seven and elimination games stats.

[8Ball]

Here are Tim Duncans averages across the board in-game sevens and elimination games.


Elimination games

7 13 W-L record


22.3 PPG (Regular season career average is 19.0 ppg)

11.6 RPG (Regular season career average is 10.8 rpg)

2.8 APG (Regular season career average is 3.0 APG)

1.8 BPG (Regular season career average is 2.2 BPG)

FG% 48.2% Regular season career average is 50.6%)




Game sevens

4 2 W-L record

24.7 PPG (Regular season career average is 19.0 ppg)

11.8 RPG (Regular season career average is 10.8 rpg)

2.7 APG (Regular season career average is 3.0 APG)

1.3 BPG (Regular season career average is 2.2 BPG)

FG% 48.2% Regular season career average is 50.6%)

So Duncan is quite pedestrian when it comes to elimination games as a whole.


This is why I don't have him in the top 4.

[8Ball]

Here are Jordan averages across the board in-game sevens and elimination games



Game sevens

33.7 PPG (Regular season career average is 30.1 ppg)

7.7 RPG (Regular season career average is 6.2 rpg)

7.0 APG (Regular season career average is 5.3 APG)

1.0 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.8 BPG)

1.0 SPG (Regular season career average is 2.3 SPG)

FG% 45.7% (Regular season career average is 49.7%)



Elimination games

5 7 W-L record

31.0 PPG (Regular season career average is 30.1 ppg)

7.9 RPG (Regular season career average is 6.2 rpg)

7.0 APG (Regular season career average is 5.3 APG)

1.3 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.8 BPG)

1.8 SPG (Regular season career average is 2.3 SPG)

TS% 53.8% (Regular season career average is 56.9%)

Can you put this side by side vs LeBron?

Would like to see 1a vs 1b.

[hold this L]

So Duncan is quite pedestrian when it comes to elimination games as a whole.


This is why I don't have him in the top 4.

How is he pedestrian? Guy offers ATG level defense on top of his points and rebounds.

[Bronbron23]

Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG

22.2 points

FG 38.9%

FT 67.3%

8 RPG

5 APG

1 SPG

1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.



22.3 PPG

5.8 RPG


3.5 APG

1.3 SPG

1.3 BPG

on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.

Not sure if there's an agenda to this but i'll say 2 things about kobe and his playoff stats. For one he played alot of his playoffs in one of the toughest defensive era's ever. Throw most of these guys in kobe's era and there points and efficiency drop. The other thing is kobe demanded alot of attention on the defensive end. He missed alot because Defenses were so focused on him. This allowed others to be open and have less attention than they would otherwise if they were on another team with a superstar that draws less attention. Players like mj, kobe and steph can have bad games but still heavily influence a game offensively just by the amount of attention they draw from the defense.

[SaintzFury13]

Not sure if there's an agenda to this but i'll say 2 things about kobe and his playoff stats. For one he played alot of his playoffs in one of the toughest defensive era's ever. Throw most of these guys in kobe's era and there points and efficiency drop. The other thing is kobe demanded alot of attention on the defensive end. He missed alot because Defenses were so focused on him. This allowed others to be open and have less attention than they would otherwise if they were on another team with a superstar that draws less attention. Players like mj, kobe and steph can have bad games but still heavily influence a game offensively just by the amount of attention they draw from the defense.

I would say this part is 50/50 at best. Yes, he did demand a lot of attention and thus, had plenty of moments where he was defended extremely well, but there were just as many instances where he could have easily deferred the other way to find a teammate with a better shot opportunity when it was clear the shot wasn't there for him. But he still chose to take it, even when logic dictated that he shouldn't. That's on him. A lot of it came down to his mentality making him think it had to be him and nobody else. This would more often than not cost his team crucial possessions that they couldn't afford to lose.

[Rysio]

Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG

22.2 points

FG 38.9%

FT 67.3%

8 RPG

5 APG

1 SPG

1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.



22.3 PPG

5.8 RPG


3.5 APG

1.3 SPG

1.3 BPG

on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.

Game 7s kobe took 20 shots or more only in 2/6 games

Elimination games kobe took less than 20 shots 11/19 games

When kobe took less than 20 shots more than 60% of the time its clear kobe had different strategy than to beat teams with his 30 ppg or so.

[coastalmarker99]

Can you put this side by side vs LeBron?

Would like to see 1a vs 1b.

Here are Lebron's averages across the board in-game sevens and elimination games.


Elimination games

15 10 W-L record


33.48 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

10.76 RPG (Regular season career average is 7.4 rpg)

7.4 APG (Regular season career average is 7.4 APG)

1.0 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.7 BPG)

1.6 STL (Regular season career average is 1.6 STL)

FG% 48.8% Regular season career average is 50.4%)




Game sevens

6 2 W-L record

34.87 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

9.87 RPG (Regular season career average is 7.4 rpg)

5.6 APG (Regular season career average is 7.4 APG)

0.8 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.7 BPG)

1.7 STL(Regular season career average is 1.6 STL)

3.6 TOV Regular season career average is 3.5 TOV)

FG% 48.7% Regular season career average is 50.4%)

[3ba11]

Shame on you OP.. You've successfully made Kobe look bad by distorting the truth with cherry-picked stats

Lebron faced elimination against garbage teams that he was favored against.. For example, Kobe would never face elimination in the 2018 Eastern Playoffs - this is a testament to Kobe's brand of ball that yielded superior teams with less supporting talent - he simply wouldn't be struggling with those kinds of teams..

And that's why Kobe was better - he played a superior way, which yielded better teams - specifically, he wasn't just a ball-dominator that reduced teammates to spot-up roles - his scoring was partially-assisted, which elevated teammate role and allowed a superior brand of basketball (ball movement).. Kobe's ability to have assisted buckets as a perimeter ballhandler was due to his elite jumpshooting skill.. Otoh, Lebron isn't on this level of skill, so he's restricted to ball-dominance, which needs more help and yields inferior teams (4/10)

The game is deeper than just the stats folks.. the game isn't played on the stat sheet..

[coastalmarker99]

Shame on you OP.. You've successfully made Kobe look bad by distorting the truth with cherry-picked stats

Lebron faced elimination against garbage teams that he was favored against.. For example, Kobe would never face elimination in the 2018 Eastern Playoffs - this is a testament to Kobe's brand of ball that yielded superior teams with less supporting talent - he simply wouldn't be struggling with those kinds of teams..

And that's why Kobe was better - he played a superior way, which yielded better teams - specifically, he wasn't just a ball-dominator that reduced teammates to spot-up roles - his scoring was partially-assisted, which elevated teammate role and allowed a superior brand of basketball (ball movement).. Kobe's ability to have assisted buckets as a perimeter ballhandler was due to his elite jumpshooting skill.. Otoh, Lebron isn't on this level of skill, so he's restricted to ball-dominance, which needs more help and yields inferior teams (4/10)

The game is deeper than just the stats folks.. the game isn't played on the stat sheet..

Pau fell all the way from 17 PPG to 13ppg when he had to be Kobe's 3rd option.

Artest went from 17ppg to just 11ppg when he had to be Kobe's 3rd option.


Lebron's way has yielded

10 final appearances

4 titles

3 60 win seasons.

11 50 win seasons

The most playoff wins ever.







Kobe's way yielded

3 final appearances

2 titles

1 60 win season

4 50 win seasons.

[3ba11]

Pau fell all the way from 17 PPG to 13ppg when he had to be Kobe's 3rd option.

Artest went from 17ppg to just 11ppg when he had to be Kobe's 3rd option.


Kobe didn't play a superior way compared to Lebron.


Lebron would have won 4 to 5 titles with Shaq instead of three as he wouldn't have chased him off.

Artest was washed - he said himself that nobody wanted him and he was forced to accept the Lakers' offer.

and I don't remember Pau ever being 3rd option alongside kobe - you'll have to refresh my memory.. All I remember is Pau being elevated from 1x all-star to perennial all-star and all-nba when he started winning with Kobe.. kind of like when pippen started winning with mj... otoh, guys like bosh and love weren't elevated alongside Lebron and everyone thought they were bums after playing with Lebron.

the reality is that kobe never had an elite scorer at 3rd option like Lebron had (super-team), so it's hard to evaluate.. But we know that 3rd options like Ray Allen, Jrue Holiday, Klay Thompson and many more still averaged 20 ppg or dominated when needed on their squads, while Love and Bosh were role-playing bums (literally spot-up shooters).

[coastalmarker99]

Artest was washed - he said himself that nobody wanted him and he was forced to accept the Lakers' offer.

and I don't remember Pau ever being 3rd option alongside kobe - you'll have to refresh my memory.. All I remember is Pau being elevated from 1x all-star to perennial all-star and all-nba when he started winning with Kobe.. kind of like when pippen started winning with mj... otoh, guys like bosh and love weren't elevated alongside Lebron and everyone thought they were bums after playing with Lebron.

the reality is that kobe never had an elite scorer at 3rd option like Lebron had (super-team), so it's hard to evaluate.. But we know that 3rd options like Ray Allen, Jrue Holiday, Klay Thompson and many more still averaged 20 ppg or dominated when needed on their squads, while Love and Bosh were role-playing bums (literally spot-up shooters).

Bosh would have dropped 19-20 PPG as the 2nd option with Lebron but he was the 3rd option, not 2nd.


And it is a complete lie that Bosh was stuck in the corner on those Heat squads. Only 5% of Bosh's FGA from 2010 to 2014 were corner threes, he ended up shooting about as many corner threes as Bron did.


How would he even be able to be in the corner when Ray Allen was in the corner on one side and Battier or Miller were stationed on the other side more often than not? Even Chalmers shot twice as many corner threes as Bosh.

More proof that you go with narratives more than actually watching the games.

[coastalmarker99]

Artest was washed - he said himself that nobody wanted him and he was forced to accept the Lakers' offer.

and I don't remember Pau ever being 3rd option alongside kobe - you'll have to refresh my memory.. All I remember is Pau being elevated from 1x all-star to perennial all-star and all-nba when he started winning with Kobe.. kind of like when pippen started winning with mj... otoh, guys like bosh and love weren't elevated alongside Lebron and everyone thought they were bums after playing with Lebron.

the reality is that kobe never had an elite scorer at 3rd option like Lebron had (super-team), so it's hard to evaluate.. But we know that 3rd options like Ray Allen, Jrue Holiday, Klay Thompson and many more still averaged 20 ppg or dominated when needed on their squads, while Love and Bosh were role-playing bums (literally spot-up shooters).

Lebron could have won titles with his 2009 and 2010 Cavs teams if Greg Foster and Adam Keefe were starting against him and a washed Stockton averaging 10ppg was the other team's #2.


An example of how bad Karl Malone supporting cast was in the 1998 finals was that only one player besides Malone averaged over 10 points a game and that was jeff hornacek who averaged 10 points a game on 40 percent shooting.

Byron Russell at 6-21 led the team in threes for the 1998 Finals. John Stockton was 2-9 from three for the entire 1998 Finals.

Combined. Jeff Hornacek was 3-9 from three for the entire 1998 Finals.

Howard Eisley went 1-7 for the whole Finals. Chris Morris went 0-9.

The entire Jazz team was 13-60 combined. For the entire series. They shot 21.7% from three. Steve Kerr shot better from three than anyone on the Jazz in the 1998 Finals,



And It wasn't like the Bulls were the prime Bulls. Chicago had 3 guys over 35 in their top-7 and Pippen had missed half that season with an injury and wasn't close to his peak).



Playing against the strong but aging defensive group of MJ/Scottie/Rodman (36 years old) surrounded by not so great players (Longley, Kukoc, Kerr) and a washed 35yo Harper Utah supporting cast besides Malone managed the following numbers in the finals.

Stockton: 9-2-8 on 49% shooting, only hit 2 threes all series


Hornacek: 11-3-3 on 41% shooting, only hit 3 threes all series

Russell (added to the starting lineup to guard Jordan): 9-5-0 on 41% shooting

Malone: 25-10-5 on 50% shooting

Keefe: 3-3-0 on 43% shooting

Foster: 1-2-0 on 27% shooting

Ostertag: 2-2-0 on 42% shooting

[coastalmarker99]

Artest was washed - he said himself that nobody wanted him and he was forced to accept the Lakers' offer.

and I don't remember Pau ever being 3rd option alongside kobe - you'll have to refresh my memory.. All I remember is Pau being elevated from 1x all-star to perennial all-star and all-nba when he started winning with Kobe.. kind of like when pippen started winning with mj... otoh, guys like bosh and love weren't elevated alongside Lebron and everyone thought they were bums after playing with Lebron.

the reality is that kobe never had an elite scorer at 3rd option like Lebron had (super-team), so it's hard to evaluate.. But we know that 3rd options like Ray Allen, Jrue Holiday, Klay Thompson and many more still averaged 20 ppg or dominated when needed on their squads, while Love and Bosh were role-playing bums (literally spot-up shooters).

The 1990's Bulls were like if Lebron and Kawhi played their entire careers together while the majority of the league were led by Bradley Beal caliber players.


The 1-3 was straight ass in the 1990s. Contrast that with now. There were 3 truly elite point guards even close to their primes when MJ played, 2 elite SGs, and...1 elite SF...that was on his team


There's 7-8 elite PGs now with 2 of them being all-time greats at the position, 4 elite SGs, and like 5 elite SFs, with 3 all-time greats at the position playing currently, one of whom is a GOAT candidate, and another is a top-15 player OAT.

It's a massive gap in terms of talent and production at the 1-3 between the 1990's and nowadays.


Cartwright and Ron Harper were 20+ point scorers before they joined the Bulls.

Toni Kokoc is a Hall of Famer.

Dennis Rodman had a ring and is a HOF.




The 1990's Bulls always had the best coach in the league and great depth around Jordan.




They just had a Michael Jordan sized hole at SG in 1994 and yet they still won 55 games and went to 7 games with the eventual eastern conference champion Replace Jordan with an all-star SG/wing such as Miller and the Bulls are winning a chip.



The drop in production from Jordan to Myers can't be overstated.

[eliteballer]

Why won’t op admit Lebron is a juicer?

[Bronbron23]

I would say this part is 50/50 at best. Yes, he did demand a lot of attention and thus, had plenty of moments where he was defended extremely well, but there were just as many instances where he could have easily deferred the other way to find a teammate with a better shot opportunity when it was clear the shot wasn't there for him. But he still chose to take it, even when logic dictated that he shouldn't. That's on him. A lot of it came down to his mentality making him think it had to be him and nobody else. This would more often than not cost his team crucial possessions that they couldn't afford to lose.

Yeah that's fair. Kobe could take some pretty bad shots