Just how many pre-1990's violations exist in a modern NBA skillset? (James Harden)

[tpols]

This is one of those plays where you try to do what you can in a tough situation. It wasn't as bad as palming the ball to try and take a shot only to continue live dribble. He didnt fake out oakley that way.

Today though, it seems to have become the bread and butter of a lot of players. IT got away with it a lot in his peak with the Celtics. Curry, Harden, Kryie, Tatum, Westbrook, Giannis.. a lot of players live off either taking an extra "gather" step, or picking up the ball to fake a shot only to continue live dribble.

I agree with the gather step nonsense, but that's mostly Harden that pulls that stunt. And its relatively new only a few years old. As far as palming only Durant and Gianni really abuse that... they'd get stripped at that height without palming. Kyrie is one of the best dribblers ever and doesn't need to palm at all, nor does he.

[hiphopanonymous]

This is probably MJs most famous dunk.



Notice how after his first dribble, he completely palms the ball and holds it before throwing it back down again to setup the slam. Anybody could use a fine tooth comb to nitpick with, but people have been playing like this since the 70s or 80s. I remember a dean smith quote where he said pro ball is a joke because of all the traveling. Every era does this. I'm glad guys don't dribble like bob cousy any more.

I do notice he does that, and Magic used to rake the ball across his body in a carrying kind of way a lot of times due to his height and high dribble in transition.

The game is fluid and calls change over time. But the envelope is pushed gradually and these small changes that cause officiating to change over time lead to bigger looking changes over the course of decades. Before MJ and Magic - due to their popularity - those slight dribbling hesitations were viewed with a greater degree of scrutiny. It's more confirming my point than denying it. The game has had another 30+ years of gradual shifting of the line in the sand even since those moves were pulling away from what was originally intended (palms down, finger tip only).

And again, I'm not here to say these guys don't do it the right way. I'm totally on board with how the game is played right now. I'm just not going to pretend James Harden goes back in time and blows everyone's mind with his skillset. He'd get them to blow their whistle before he blew anyone's mind.

[EagleFang]

One hundred million billion

[tpols]

I do notice he does that, and Magic used to rake the ball across his body in a carrying kind of way a lot of times due to his height and high dribble in transition.

The game is fluid and calls change over time. But the envelope is pushed gradually and these small changes that cause officiating to change over time lead to bigger looking changes over the course of decades. Before MJ and Magic - due to their popularity - those slight dribbling hesitations were viewed with a greater degree of scrutiny. It's more confirming my point than denying it. The game has had another 30+ years of gradual shifting of the line in the sand even since those moves were pulling away from what was originally intended (palms down, finger tip only).

And again, I'm not here to say these guys don't do it the right way. I'm totally on board with how the game is played right now. I'm just not going to pretend James Harden goes back in time and blows everyone's mind with his skillset. He'd get them to blow their whistle before he blew anyone's mind.

Harden's shooting, passing, and PnR orchestration are all elite. The only thing cheap about his game is that retarded two step back to the 3 pt line move, which nowadays he uses like once a game, and his flopping tactics, which he hasnt been using much at all in Brooklyn. So take that one shot out of his arsenal, he's still one of the best alley oop throwers, cutter finders, shooters, finishers, and ball handlers in the league... Harden isn't durant or giannis.. He's a very skilled ball handler and knows how to use his body to shield defenders from the ball at a magic level. His skill would shine through in any era. Ive never seen a ref call a star player for petty palms or travels over and over before. Like they're gonna give him five straight carries lol. That would be stupid for business.

[ShawkFactory]

This is probably MJs most famous dunk.



Notice how after his first dribble, he completely palms the ball and holds it before throwing it back down again to setup the slam. Anybody could use a fine tooth comb to nitpick with, but people have been playing like this since the 70s or 80s. I remember a dean smith quote where he said pro ball is a joke because of all the traveling. Every era does this. I'm glad guys don't dribble like bob cousy any more.

That's a great call. But Jordan is probably the only guy who could have gotten away with something like that. Maybe big guys like Hakeem and Robinson.

It's not the same as carrying pretty much every time you move any move. It's not just a knock on Harden because pretty much everyone does it. Make defense so much harder.

[Airupthere]

Look at Tatum's move here at 2:44. Oubre jumped to blocked Tatum's shot when he saw Tatum lift the ball in a shooting position. But Tatum was able to continue that as a continuous live dribble. What chance would the defender have against that given that defenders inherently are just reactionary.

Clarkson did the same thing right after Tatum.

[hiphopanonymous]

Harden's shooting, passing, and PnR orchestration are all elite. The only thing cheap about his game is that retarded two step back to the 3 pt line move, which nowadays he uses like once a game, and his flopping tactics, which he hasnt been using much at all in Brooklyn. So take that one shot out of his arsenal, he's still one of the best alley oop throwers, cutter finders, shooters, finishers, and ball handlers in the league... Harden isn't durant or giannis.. He's a very skilled ball handler and knows how to use his body to shield defenders from the ball at a magic level. His skill would shine through in any era. Ive never seen a ref call a star player for petty palms or travels over and over before. Like they're gonna give him five straight carries lol. That would be stupid for business.

If he's a newcomer they're not going to go easy on him on calls - if he got warped to the 80's they wouldn't be like "oooh this guys good it's James Harden!" - they'd be sharks circling testing to see if there's any blood in the water as they do for any rookie. He'd have to establish himself before he'd earn any preferential treatment and the preferential treatment he could potentially receive then wouldn't be as extreme as we see now since the line in the sand back then was much closer to strict dribbling and traveling rules.

Also, yes his passes are very much on point and he's got good vision, yes he's capable of dribbling palms down under good control, and yes he's an outstanding finisher at the rim or open shooter.

But look at those plays how he got open. Every single possession that got him space to defeat the defender (by a mile sometimes) - was an old school violation. Every single one of them. He'd truly look like a different player under those rules. He'd not make any substantial gains of space with what I could see. Because his game isn't built on quickness, he's not quicker than anyone he's just shifty and it's based on very loose to non-existent calls. Sure he can dribble palms down but every time he displays this he doesn't get past anyone it's only once he palms it for a hesitation that he gets his man to go sideways before he steps past him. He'd have to learn a post-up backdown kind of dribble to get close to the rim if the defense was already set and he wasn't allowed those kinds of plays. I mean - it'd look like textbook 80's basketball it wouldn't look like what he does now.

[hiphopanonymous]

Look at Tatum's move here at 2:44. Oubre jumped to blocked Tatum's shot when he saw Tatum lift the ball in a shooting position. But Tatum was able to continue that as a continuous live dribble. What chance would the defender have against that given that defenders inherently are just reactionary.

Clarkson did the same thing right after Tatum.

Jeez his middle finger is almost at the exact bottom of the ball lol. This is how players practice to create space today it's just so different and of course with freedom like this the amount of space they are capable of achieving to escape a defender is incredible

[Lebron23]

Nba superstars gets superstar treatment. Harden is a very skilled player even without these violations.

[Airupthere]

Nba superstars gets superstar treatment. Harden is a very skilled player even without these violations.

Not saying he’s not. He is but one example. Im saying these plays which were violations before are being commonly allowed in todays game across the league. And it’s not necessarily a knock on todays game. As the others say, it’s just different.

[2much_knowledge]

Old heads will forever be the cancer of basketball's evolution.

Not everything evolves for the better. Just saying