Lebron recruiting Curry to make superteam - Brian Windhorst

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[TheGoatest]

We can surely take injuries and mid-season trades into account, which I actually did already in my earlier analysis. Your other points however, are just excuses since apparently young players taking giant leaps never happened with Lebron, while veteran star players became washed more often on Lebron's team. Its not like Lebron was pre-season favorites for like only 1-2 years, it was 6 straight years and only happened after he colluded to make his superteams. Interestingly, Lebron's Heat and Cavs(first 2 years) remained as pre-season favorites despite the emerging new talents and veteran stars became washed, the improvement of young talents and veteran stars becoming washed didnt change the fact that Lebron's teams remained as title favorites.

Similarly, the Nets made a mid-season trade for Harden, but the odds remained that Lebron and Lakers were title favorites:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...s-harden-trade

Lebron aint at fault for collusion, but once he decided to collude theres no turning back and no excuse for not winning it all. The pre-season odds are accurate representation of the team's raw talent level, and 6 straight years at pre-season #1 was enough to tell the story that Lebron always had the most stacked teams and most talented teammates since he colluded(until Warriors superteam). And yet he went 3 out of 6 with the most stacked team, and other than 2015 he had absolutely no excuse.

I'll give your trolling a C+, mostly for the effort.

- The 2011-12 Heat were the pre-season favorites because Dwyane Wade was All-NBA 2nd team who averaged 25.5 ppg in the previous season.
- The 2011-12 Thunder were below the Heat in the pre-season favorite rankings because James Harden and Serge Ibaka were fringe role players.
- In the 2011-12 season itself, Dwyane Wade's ppg dropped to 22.1 ppg and he dropped to All-NBA 3rd team.
- In the 2011-12 season itself, James Harden elevated himself to become a near unanimous 6th man of the year, who was obviously good enough to be a well-over 20ppg averaging franchise player as the #1 guy, something which he proved only a few months after the 2012 finals when he went to the Rockets.
- Likewise, in the 2011-12 season Serge Ibaka averaged 3.7 blocks in only 27 minutes per game, was named to All-defensive 1st team as a big man and was only a few votes away from being defensive player of the year.

Hence, because of these developments, and because the Thunder beat the veteran heavy, previous championship winners Mavericks, Lakers and Spurs in their playoff series, the odds for the finals were adjusted from the outdated preseason odds and the Thunder were seen as the favorites to beat the Heat in the finals, both among sports analysts and Vegas bookies. LeBron overcame these odds and won the 2012 finals as the underdog, leaving hater trolls like you to post about preseason odds on internet forums.

[Kiddlovesnets]

I'll give your trolling a C+, mostly for the effort.

- The 2011-12 Heat were the pre-season favorites because Dwyane Wade was All-NBA 2nd team who averaged 25.5 ppg in the previous season.
- The 2011-12 Thunder were below the Heat in the pre-season favorite rankings because James Harden and Serge Ibaka were fringe role players.
- In the 2011-12 season itself, Dwyane Wade's ppg dropped to 22.1 ppg and he dropped to All-NBA 3rd team.
- In the 2011-12 season itself, James Harden elevated himself to become a near unanimous 6th man of the year, who was obviously good enough to be a well-over 20ppg averaging franchise player as the #1 guy, something which he proved only a few months after the 2012 finals when he went to the Rockets.
- Likewise, in the 2011-12 season Serge Ibaka averaged 3.7 blocks in only 27 minutes per game, was named to All-defensive 1st team as a big man and was only a few votes away from being defensive player of the year.

Hence, because of these developments, and because the Thunder beat the veteran heavy, previous championship winners Mavericks, Lakers and Spurs in their playoff series, the odds for the finals were adjusted from the outdated preseason odds and the Thunder were seen as the favorites to beat the Heat in the finals, both among sports analysts and Vegas bookies. LeBron overcame these odds and won the 2012 finals as the underdog, leaving hater trolls like you to post about preseason odds on internet forums.

The Thunder did improve, but Heat was still the more talented team. And why did Wade's stats decline? Because the 2011 experiment didnt work out in the finals, and Wade had to take a backseat and sacrificed himself for Lebron to run the show. Wade's true decline only happened in 2013-2014 season, he was absolutely a top 10 player in 2012 and clear-cut better than Westbrook. And lets not even mention Harden yet, he was just as good as he was then, a 6th man of the year caliber player. He only became an MVP-level player since leaving OKC Thunder.

The Mavs were terrible that year so they are not your typical defending champ, while the Lakers were also terrible with a declining Kobe and them losing Odom. Their regular season records were horrible, so by your logic they were absolutely nowhere like title contenders. Its funny that you insisted the pre-season odds meant nothing, and then you talked about the Mavs and Lakers in 2012. Double standard is exactly the reason why you are a terrible troll and discussion with you is meaningless.

Also the Thunder became favorites right before the finals series since they defeated the Spurs, which were the only worthy opponents they beat anyway. Meanwhile Chris Bosh just returned from his injuries and no one knew if he was back to 100%, the odds were made with concerns to his health but the finals series showed that Bosh was fully healthy. The odds would've been firmly in Heat's favor had the experts known that Bosh was healthy and ready to play full minutes in the finals.

[TheGoatest]

The Thunder did improve, but Heat was still the more talented team. And why did Wade's stats decline? Because the 2011 experiment didnt work out in the finals, and Wade had to take a backseat and sacrificed himself for Lebron to run the show. Wade's true decline only happened in 2013-2014 season, he was absolutely a top 10 player in 2012 and clear-cut better than Westbrook. And lets not even mention Harden yet, he was just as good as he was then, a 6th man of the year caliber player. He only became an MVP-level player since leaving OKC Thunder.

The Mavs were terrible that year so they are not your typical defending champ, while the Lakers were also terrible with a declining Kobe and them losing Odom. Their regular season records were horrible, so by your logic they were absolutely nowhere like title contenders. Its funny that you insisted the pre-season odds meant nothing, and then you talked about the Mavs and Lakers in 2012. Double standard is exactly the reason why you are a terrible troll and discussion with you is meaningless.

Also the Thunder became favorites right before the finals series since they defeated the Spurs, which were the only worthy opponents they beat anyway. Meanwhile Chris Bosh just returned from his injuries and no one knew if he was back to 100%, the odds were made with concerns to his health but the finals series showed that Bosh was fully healthy. The odds would've been firmly in Heat's favor had the experts known that Bosh was healthy and ready to play full minutes in the finals.

Wade peaked in 2008-09. He declined slightly in 2009-10. Then declined further in 2010-11, and his first season of substantial decline was in 2011-12. Whether he it was because he became washed, or because he started getting injured and missing games, or a combination of the two, either way there is no doubt that this was the first season since his rookie year where he wasn't an elite player. His minutes dropped and he would never be the same again.

James Harden scored 37 and 45 in his first two games with the Rockets 4 months after the 2012 finals, proving that he was already a franchise player in 2011-12 who was just playing on a team whose perimeter was too stacked.

I mentioned Thunder beating the Mavs, the Lakers and the Spurs in the playoff series because if there was any argument in the Thunder being ranked below the Heat in the pre-season rankings it was that they were young and inexperienced. But in the 2012 playoffs they went on to beat not one, not two, but three veteran teams who had won the previous 3 and 10 out of the previous 13 championships between them, and in the case of Spurs would go on to win one more two years later with the same core. So there were no double standards in my argument, only getting your double standards exposed.

You tried to spin the Lakers and the Mavs being over the hill, but since when is a .545 team (Mavs) "terrible" for a first round opponent and especially a .621 team "terrible" for a second round opponent. What playoffs does a team run into three .700 teams in a playoff run? Anyway, that still leaves the .758 Spurs. You tried to spin them as an "only". Yeah, that young Thunder "only" beat a .758 veteran-heavy team who had won multiple championships with the same core and would go on to win a championship again with the same core, even though the Thunder didn't have home court advantage in that Spurs series. And speaking of that, they had home court in the finals against the Heat, another reason for why the Heat were the underdogs.

Bosh returned before the finals, but I don't see what that has to do anything other than make LeBron's feat of beating the Thunder, who were 100% healthy themselves even more impressive considering Bosh was mediocre at best in the finals with his 14.6 ppg on 45% shooting. But had the preseason odds-makers known that Durant would be all-NBA 1st team, Westbrook all-NBA 2nd team, Harden near unanimous 6th man of the year and Ibaka a close 2nd in DPOY voting in 2011-12, then the 2011-12 preseason odds would've been firmly in Thunder's favor.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Wade peaked in 2008-09. He declined slightly in 2009-10. Then declined further in 2010-11, and his first season of substantial decline was in 2011-12. Whether he it was because he became washed, or because he started getting injured and missing games, or a combination of the two, either way there is no doubt that this was the first season since his rookie year where he wasn't an elite player. His minutes dropped and he would never be the same again.

James Harden scored 37 and 45 in his first two games with the Rockets 4 months after the 2012 finals, proving that he was already a franchise player in 2011-12 who was just playing on a team whose perimeter was too stacked.

I mentioned Thunder beating the Mavs, the Lakers and the Spurs in the playoff series because if there was any argument in the Thunder being ranked below the Heat in the pre-season rankings it was that they were young and inexperienced. But in the 2012 playoffs they went on to beat not one, not two, but three veteran teams who had won the previous 3 and 10 out of the previous 13 championships between them, and in the case of Spurs would go on to win one more two years later with the same core. So there were no double standards in my argument, only getting your double standards exposed.

You tried to spin the Lakers and the Mavs being over the hill, but since when is a .545 team (Mavs) "terrible" for a first round opponent and especially a .621 team "terrible" for a second round opponent. What playoffs does a team run into three .700 teams in a playoff run? Anyway, that still leaves the .758 Spurs. You tried to spin them as an "only". Yeah, that young Thunder "only" beat a .758 veteran-heavy team who had won multiple championships with the same core and would go on to win a championship again with the same core, even though the Thunder didn't have home court advantage in that Spurs series. And speaking of that, they had home court in the finals against the Heat, another reason for why the Heat were the underdogs.

Bosh returned before the finals, but I don't see what that has to do anything other than make LeBron's feat of beating the Thunder, who were 100% healthy themselves even more impressive considering Bosh was mediocre at best in the finals with his 14.6 ppg on 45% shooting. But had the preseason odds-makers known that Durant would be all-NBA 1st team, Westbrook all-NBA 2nd team, Harden near unanimous 6th man of the year and Ibaka a close 2nd in DPOY voting in 2011-12, then the 2011-12 preseason odds would've been firmly in Thunder's favor.

Nah Wade almost won FMVP in 2011 NBA Finals, had Lebron played just slightly better up to Wade's level in 2012. And how was the way Harden playing with Rockets in 2013 able to prove that he was already this good in 2012? One off-season cant change a lot, you think. Then by your logic, Wade was so good in 2011 so how was he bad already in 2012? You dont know what you are talking about bro, you are mad.

And of course the preseason odds were unable to predict that Lebron has team chemistry issues with every all-star teammate hes meshing with, the pre-season odds are based on raw talent on each team's rosters only. One thing you've completely overlooked is that, players like Harden and Ibaka were able to improve and play at their max level only because Durant was willing to share the ball with them. With Lebron, neither of them would've developed into decent players at all. And btw theres no need to tell me that Westbrook was All-NBA 2nd team, he was not better than Wade and hes always a cancer.

The Thunder did have HCA and beat the Spurs which made the experts overrate them, they aint nearly as good as they were hyped before the finals series. The finals odds took recent forms into consideration which is why its a poor representation of the team's ceilings, as the form can change anytime, but players skills will not. But anyway, whether the Heat was favorites or underdogs, it doesnt change the fact that they were more talented than the Thunder. So why did a Lebron-led team turn from pre-season favorites into finals series underdog? Why were Lebron's teammates unable to perform to their potential so the team looked weaker coming into the finals? This is the question lebronstans like you need to ask yourselves.

[TheGoatest]

Nah Wade almost won FMVP in 2011 NBA Finals, had Lebron played just slightly better up to Wade's level in 2012. And how was the way Harden playing with Rockets in 2013 able to prove that he was already this good in 2012? One off-season cant change a lot, you think. Then by your logic, Wade was so good in 2011 so how was he bad already in 2012? You dont know what you are talking about bro, you are mad.

And of course the preseason odds were unable to predict that Lebron has team chemistry issues with every all-star teammate hes meshing with, the pre-season odds are based on raw talent on each team's rosters only. One thing you've completely overlooked is that, players like Harden and Ibaka were able to improve and play at their max level only because Durant was willing to share the ball with them. With Lebron, neither of them would've developed into decent players at all. And btw theres no need to tell me that Westbrook was All-NBA 2nd team, he was not better than Wade and hes always a cancer.

The Thunder did have HCA and beat the Spurs which made the experts overrate them, they aint nearly as good as they were hyped before the finals series. The finals odds took recent forms into consideration which is why its a poor representation of the team's ceilings, as the form can change anytime, but players skills will not. But anyway, whether the Heat was favorites or underdogs, it doesnt change the fact that they were more talented than the Thunder. So why did a Lebron-led team turn from pre-season favorites into finals series underdog? Why were Lebron's teammates unable to perform to their potential so the team looked weaker coming into the finals? This is the question lebronstans like you need to ask yourselves.

I like how you start by saying that Wade was good at the end of 2011-12 because of what happened 12 months earlier at the end of 2010-11, while you try to deny that Harden was good in at the end of 2011-12 because of what happened only 4 months later (37 point and 45 games by him), at the beginning of the 2012-13 season. The desperation at trying to hold on to your nonsense agenda.
And historically, one offseason can change quite a great deal for veteran players. They can go from elite players to scrubs from one season to the next. There are countless examples of this. It wasn't quite as drastic for Wade between 2010-11 and 2011-12, but it is clear that there was a substantial decline.

No, Harden and Ibaka improved because they were extremely talented players in their own right. Especially Harden, whose numbers exploded as soon as he left Durant/Thunder. But the talent was there. Everyone knew this, including the experts and that is why the Thunder was seen as the favorites over the underdog LeBron who still beat them. You can try to exploit Westbrook's reputation as a cancer since then, but he's still done more than post 2011-12 Wade. Aside from winning a championship, which Wade won because of LeBron. The fact is that had Westbrook played with LeBron instead of Durant, he would've won championships, much like Chris Bosh and Kevin Love had reputations as empty stat losers before playing with LeBron and LeBron still got them rings.

You saying that the Thunder weren't nearly as good as they were hyped and that the experts were wrong doesn't mean jack shit. We're discussing their status as favorites at the time. I don't doubt that the experts would switch their picks from Thunder to the Heat if they had a time machine and could choose over again. But the fact remains that they were the favorites and seen as the more talented team at the time. The Heat might've been the preseason favorites, mainly because them winning the east was way more predictable than who would win the west (another thing stupid and misleading about preseason odds ). Why was LeBron able to win rings with every star player he played with while Durant wasn't? This is the question LeBron haters like you need to ask yourselves.

[Kiddlovesnets]

I like how you start by saying that Wade was good at the end of 2011-12 because of what happened 12 months earlier at the end of 2010-11, while you try to deny that Harden was good in at the end of 2011-12 because of what happened only 4 months later (37 point and 45 games by him), at the beginning of the 2012-13 season. The desperation at trying to hold on to your nonsense agenda.
And historically, one offseason can change quite a great deal for veteran players. They can go from elite players to scrubs from one season to the next. There are countless examples of this. It wasn't quite as drastic for Wade between 2010-11 and 2011-12, but it is clear that there was a substantial decline.

No, Harden and Ibaka improved because they were extremely talented players in their own right. Especially Harden, whose numbers exploded as soon as he left Durant/Thunder. But the talent was there. Everyone knew this, including the experts and that is why the Thunder was seen as the favorites over the underdog LeBron who still beat them. You can try to exploit Westbrook's reputation as a cancer since then, but he's still done more than post 2011-12 Wade. Aside from winning a championship, which Wade won because of LeBron. The fact is that had Westbrook played with LeBron instead of Durant, he would've won championships, much like Chris Bosh and Kevin Love had reputations as empty stat losers before playing with LeBron and LeBron still got them rings.

You saying that the Thunder weren't nearly as good as they were hyped and that the experts were wrong doesn't mean jack shit. We're discussing their status as favorites at the time. I don't doubt that the experts would switch their picks from Thunder to the Heat if they had a time machine and could choose over again. But the fact remains that they were the favorites and seen as the more talented team at the time. The Heat might've been the preseason favorites, mainly because them winning the east was way more predictable than who would win the west (another thing stupid and misleading about preseason odds ). Why was LeBron able to win rings with every star player he played with while Durant wasn't? This is the question LeBron haters like you need to ask yourselves.

Wade was still good even in 2013, of course not like his FMVP season and 2011, but definitely an all-star caliber player. In 2012, Wade was objectively better than Westbrook and its not even a contest. Anyone who watched the game can tell that Wade took a backseat and his numbers went down for good reasons, while Westbrook was always an empty stats player with his cancerous ball-dominant playing style (and without Lebron/Harden's play-making capability). You dont know what you are talking about if you think Westbrook was better than Wade, replace Wade by Westbrook on the Heat and he would look about just as good as Chris Bosh.

I never said they aint extremely talented players in their own right. However, just being talented aint enough for a player to grow into a star, the team needs to develop them in the right way. Theres a reason why the Timberwolves and Kings always failed to develop their lottery draft picks, some were bad picks but many others were a culprit of the team had no idea/vision on how to develop their players. On the other hand, its necessary for such players to be given the ball and entrusted to the right role to continue the development. If Harden/Ibaka played with Lebron, he'd never have improved into the player he was. Even with Durant/Westbrook, he wouldnt have been a MVP caliber player, though good enough to be an all-star. Harden in 2012 was absolutely nowhere near as good as his Rockets years, otherwise the Thunder wouldnt have traded him in the very first place. You forgot how shit Harden was in 2012 Finals, no one would've foreseen how great he would be in Rockets uniform.

And I am talking about pre-season odds as metrics to determine the talent level on the team. How good a team plays depend on many more factors, but pre-season odds are set based on addition of raw talent from each team's rosters, without taking factors such as chemistry, coaching, injuries, recent forms and mid-season trades into accounts. There was no injury nor mid-season trade that affected the chances of winning in 2012, so it all came down to chemistry and recent form. The Thunder had better forms into the finals defeating the Spurs 4 times in a row, and the chemistry was a lot lot better than the Heat. So why Lebron's team had chemistry problem and Wade/Bosh couldnt perform at their expected level? Had Lebron been a better shooter, and willing to share the ball, the Heat would've performed significantly better.

Lebron's system was never friendly to his all-star teammates, everyone became worse since joining up with Lebron. So nope, this doesnt mean Lebron had worse teammates, just his team was unable to play at their maximum potential because of the flaws in Lebron's game and playing style. He has himself to blame, its ridiculous to use his teammates as scapegoat or rant at his opponents for being too strong.

[TheGoatest]

Wade was still good even in 2013, of course not like his FMVP season and 2011, but definitely an all-star caliber player. In 2012, Wade was objectively better than Westbrook and its not even a contest. Anyone who watched the game can tell that Wade took a backseat and his numbers went down for good reasons, while Westbrook was always an empty stats player with his cancerous ball-dominant playing style (and without Lebron/Harden's play-making capability). You dont know what you are talking about if you think Westbrook was better than Wade, replace Wade by Westbrook on the Heat and he would look about just as good as Chris Bosh.

I never said they aint extremely talented players in their own right. However, just being talented aint enough for a player to grow into a star, the team needs to develop them in the right way. Theres a reason why the Timberwolves and Kings always failed to develop their lottery draft picks, some were bad picks but many others were a culprit of the team had no idea/vision on how to develop their players. On the other hand, its necessary for such players to be given the ball and entrusted to the right role to continue the development. If Harden/Ibaka played with Lebron, he'd never have improved into the player he was. Even with Durant/Westbrook, he wouldnt have been a MVP caliber player, though good enough to be an all-star. Harden in 2012 was absolutely nowhere near as good as his Rockets years, otherwise the Thunder wouldnt have traded him in the very first place. You forgot how shit Harden was in 2012 Finals, no one would've foreseen how great he would be in Rockets uniform.

And I am talking about pre-season odds as metrics to determine the talent level on the team. How good a team plays depend on many more factors, but pre-season odds are set based on addition of raw talent from each team's rosters, without taking factors such as chemistry, coaching, injuries, recent forms and mid-season trades into accounts. There was no injury nor mid-season trade that affected the chances of winning in 2012, so it all came down to chemistry and recent form. The Thunder had better forms into the finals defeating the Spurs 4 times in a row, and the chemistry was a lot lot better than the Heat. So why Lebron's team had chemistry problem and Wade/Bosh couldnt perform at their expected level? Had Lebron been a better shooter, and willing to share the ball, the Heat would've performed significantly better.

Lebron's system was never friendly to his all-star teammates, everyone became worse since joining up with Lebron. So nope, this doesnt mean Lebron had worse teammates, just his team was unable to play at their maximum potential because of the flaws in Lebron's game and playing style. He has himself to blame, its ridiculous to use his teammates as scapegoat or rant at his opponents for being too strong.

Wade was good in 2011-12, but not elite or borderline-elite like he was before that season. The pre-season odds makers thought that Wade would still be an elite player in 2011-12, which he didn't end up being, and their false thinking of Wade being elite is what influenced the Heat's pre-season rankings for the 2011-12 season.
Post-2011-12 Westbrook is a way better player than post-2011-12 Wade. You're just trying to exploit Wade's overall career reputation and Westbrook's overall career reputation to prove the opposite, but you only end up looking like an idiot trying to do so.

You said that Durant made Harden and Ibaka into better players. Harden, Ibaka (offensively) and Westbrook all had their best seasons after they stopped playing with Durant. Harden and Westbrook even MVPs. The only difference is that they didn't win rings with Durant, unlike Wade/Bosh/Kyrie/Love/AD all won rings with LeBron. Meanwhile LeBron was able to make a bum like Mo Williams into an all-star, something Durant has never done with a player anywhere near as shitty as Mo Williams.

"Determining the talent of a team" in the preseason doesn't mean jack shit if that team proves to be less talented than determined or more talented than determined in the season itself. And the Thunder ended up being way more talented that was thought at the dawn of the 2011-12 season. The Thunder were thought to be nothing more than a 1-2 punch + role players at the start of the season. By the end of the season their distant 4th best player averaged 3.7 blocks in 27 minutes and was a close 2nd in DPOY voting. And there was definitely an injury in 2012 that effected the chances of winning. Wade missed over a quarter of the season and Bosh missed 9 games. Meanwhile Durant missed 0 games, Westbrook missed 0 games, Harden missed 4 games and Ibaka missed 0 games in the regular season and neither of the 4 missed a single game in the playoffs. Yet all this isn't supposed to matter because of some stupid preseason rankings? Yeah, right.

LeBron's system was always friendly to empty stat career losers who all got rings on their fingers after they played with LeBron. Meanwhile, Durant's teammates didn't win with him and ended up having their best seasons statistically without him.