Some of Kobe's and Duncan rings are 2nd option rings

[dankok8]

Who won fmvp that year

Not the guy who was by far the best player on the Spurs.

[3ball]

Kobe is the only guy that won titles while leading his team in assists and dominating the scoring load (10 more ppg than sidekick in playoffs and Finals)

Kobe accomplished this in 09' and 10'

Oh, and Jordan did it in 91/93/97

[tpols]

Kobe had a higher playoff VORP than peak Shaq in the 2001 playoff run, averaging 29/7/6 on 116 ORTG and 99 DRTG (super elite for a guard). He was the first option producer. Teams doubled Kobe too... they used to leave Fisher wide open.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe is the only guy that won titles while leading his team in assists and dominating the scoring load (10 more ppg than sidekick in playoffs and Finals)

Kobe accomplished this in 09' and 10'

Oh, and Jordan did it in 91/93/97

Spewing bullshit per usual. Bird, Hakeem, Duncan, Wade & Curry all did it too. It really is amazing how often you manage to be wrong

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kobe had a higher playoff VORP than peak Shaq in the 2001 playoff run, averaging 29/7/6 on 116 ORTG and 99 DRTG (super elite for a guard). He was the first option producer. Teams doubled Kobe too... they used to leave Fisher wide open.

2001 was domination with shaq as 1a and Kobe as 1b
2000 was a carry job from shaq
2002 was a semi carry job as well from shaq

Thats how the win shares + PPG gap views their 3peat in the 2000/2002 seasons.

Kobe in 2000 was still 2014 Kawhi level player and Shaq had to bring him up to speed. Kawhi would of won a 3peat with Duncan but he got grandpa Duncan. While Kobe got peak Shaq. 2000 Shaq was second in the PPG/win share gap to co star list from 2000-present.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe in 2000 was still 2014 Kawhi level player and Shaq had to bring him up to speed. Kawhi would of won a 3peat with Duncan but he got grandpa Duncan. While Kobe got peak Shaq. 2000 Shaq was second in the PPG/win share gap to co star list from 2000-present.

Lol nah, Kobe was the clear sidekick in 2000 but he was All-NBA and a top 10 player. 2014 Kawhi was a role player

[rmt]

Some of you have short memories - especially about 2005 Manu and Kawhi's role on the 2014 Spurs (sans the last 3 games of the Finals). The entire regular season and playoffs:

2005 RS
Duncan 20.3 pts 11.1 rebs 2.7 asst 2.6 blks 49.6%FG
Manu 16 pts 4.4 rebs 3.9 asst 1.6 stl 47.1%FG
Parker 16.6 pts 3.7 rebs 6.0 asst 1.2 stl 48.2%FG

2005 Playoffs
Duncan 23.6 pts 12.4 rebs 2.7 asst 2.3 blk 46.4%FG
Manu 20.8 pts 5.8 rebs 4.2 asst 1.2 stl 50.7%FG
Parker 17.2 pts 2.9 rebs 4.3 asst 0.7 stl 45.4%FG


2007 RS
Duncan 20 pts 10.6 rebs 3.4 asst 2.4 blks 54.6%FG
Parker 18.6 pts 3.2 rebs 5.5 asst 1.1 stl 52%FG
Manu 16.5 pts 4.4 rebs 3.5 asst 1.5 stl 46.4%FG

2007 Playoffs
Duncan 22.2 pts 11.5 rebs 3.3 asst 3.1 blks 52.1%FG
Parker 20.8 pts 3.4 rebs 5.8 asst 1.1 stl 48%FG
Manu 16.7 pts 5.5 rebs 3.7 asst 1.7 stl 40.1%FG


2014 RS
Parker 16.7 pts 2.3 rebs 5.7 asst 0.5 stl 49.9%FG
Duncan 15.1 pts 9.7 rebs 3 asst 1.9 blks 49%FG
Leonard 12.8 pts 6.2 rebs 2 asst 1.7 stl 52.2%FG
Manu 12.3 pts 3 rebs 4.3 asst 1 stl 46.9%FG

2014 Playoffs
Parker 17.4 pts 2 rebs 4.8 asst 0.7 stl 48.6%FG
Duncan 16.3 pts 9.2 rebs 2 asst 1.3 blks 52.3%FG
Leonard 14.3 pts 6.7 rebs 1.7 asst 1.7 stl 51%FG
Manu 14.3 pts 3.3 rebs 4.1 asst 1.6 stl 43.9%FG

[Kblaze8855]

Kobe had a higher playoff VORP than peak Shaq in the 2001 playoff run, averaging 29/7/6 on 116 ORTG and 99 DRTG (super elite for a guard). He was the first option producer. Teams doubled Kobe too... they used to leave Fisher wide open.

The history rewriting to make the 3 peat Lakers not be Shaqs team will work one day just not when the people being told it remember the league at the time. That’s an argument to convince 19 year olds.

The question those years was is Shaq the GOAT.....most dominant ever....and if Kobe was better than Tmac and AI. Laugh if you like. I was on ISH having those discussions and it was fairly normal.

Kobe or Kidd for best guard wouldn’t be as one sided as some imagine. And Jordan or Shaq wouldn’t be either. Not then.

[3ball]

Kobe and Duncan shouldn't feel ashamed because everyone in history needed an equal-scoring partner (1b) for half of their rings except the goat, who won 6 rings with a true 2nd option that averaged far less in every playoffs.

Teammate scoring matters because equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so only MJ faced "1-man team" defensive attention for his entire career, (thus giving maximum integrity to his stats and rings).. Kenny Smith talks about MJ being the only 1-man show here.

Ultimately, rings with 2nd options are greater than rings with 1b's and Jordan has 4 more rings with 2nd options than anyone else in history - that's his irrefutable goat argument.

Btw, everyone in history that won 3 Finals needed a teammate to win FMVP or average 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals.. But Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg, so only MJ could win 3 or 3-peat with Pippen.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe and Duncan shouldn't feel ashamed because everyone in history needed an equal-scoring partner (1b) for half of their rings except the goat, who won 6 rings with a true 2nd option that averaged far less in every playoffs.

Teammate scoring matters because equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so only MJ faced "1-man team" defensive attention for his entire career, (thus giving maximum integrity to his stats and rings).. Kenny Smith talks about MJ being the only 1-man show here.

Ultimately, rings with 2nd options are greater than rings with 1b's and Jordan has 4 more rings with 2nd options than anyone else in history - that's his irrefutable goat argument.

Btw, everyone in history that won 3 Finals needed a teammate to win FMVP or average 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals.. But Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg, so only MJ could win 3 or 3-peat with Pippen.

Kobe & Duncan also won titles with different casts, Jordan never even had a winning season without Pippen

[3ball]

Kobe & Duncan also won titles with different casts, Jordan never even had a winning season without Pippen

Pippen was less help than everyone else had...

So you're saying mj deserves knocks because he didn't have MORE help? Is that what you're saying??

everyone in history that won 3 Finals needed a teammate to win FMVP or average 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals.. But Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg, so only MJ could win 3 or 3-peat with Pippen.

Kobe & Duncan also won titles with different casts, Jordan never even had a winning season without Pippen

everyone in history needed an equal-scoring partner (1b) for half of their rings except the goat, who won 6 rings with a true 2nd option that averaged far less in every playoffs.

Teammate scoring matters because equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so only MJ faced "1-man team" defensive attention for his entire career, (thus giving maximum integrity to his stats and rings).. Kenny Smith talks about MJ being the only 1-man show here.

Ultimately, rings with 2nd options are greater than rings with 1b's and Jordan has 4 more rings with 2nd options than anyone else in history - that's his irrefutable goat argument.

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen was less help than everyone else had...

everyone in history that won 3 Finals needed a teammate to win FMVP or average 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals.. But Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg, so only MJ could win 3 or 3-peat with Pippen.

You think Gasol > Pippen?

[3ball]

You think Gasol > Pippen?

There was never talk that Pippen was "really the MVP" after a Finals was over, whereas people still say Gasol was the real FMVP

Ultimately, Pippen wasn't an offensive player; Gasol was.. he was an offensive "go-to" player that commanded doubles - he could exploit matchups and force opponents to gameplan

Pippen was more like a Draymond Green type of role - inferior to Gasol's aforementioned role...

And Gasol was also more impactful defensively

Do you read anything I write? Pippen sucked

And again, Kobe needed an equal-scoring partner to win a 3rd Finals, like everyone not named GOAT (only jordan didn't need a 1b)

[Dbrog]

How can someone be a sidekick and score more than the supposed 1st option during the regular season, playoffs, and finals? Wouldn't the guy who scored less be the sidekick?

Taking out the other aspects of basketball, which we know Duncan excelled at...Duncan scored more than Manu every step of the way.

Because these dudes saying this weren't watching basketball those years. All of us who did, know that Duncan was indisputably the best on every championship run except maybe his last where he was more of a 1B to Kawhi's 1A

[Dbrog]

The history rewriting to make the 3 peat Lakers not be Shaqs team will work one day just not when the people being told it remember the league at the time. That’s an argument to convince 19 year olds.

The question those years was is Shaq the GOAT.....most dominant ever....and if Kobe was better than Tmac and AI. Laugh if you like. I was on ISH having those discussions and it was fairly normal.

Kobe or Kidd for best guard wouldn’t be as one sided as some imagine. And Jordan or Shaq wouldn’t be either. Not then.

Can confirm this is 100% true. I remember those discussions as well on TV or with friends.