Is Jimmy Butler more talented than any wing MJ faced in the 90’s?

[Real Men Wear Green]

Still...Butler is the better passer and Defender.

"Talent" is about the ability to do something. Eric Snow was a better passer and defender than Kyrie Irving. Was he therefore more talented?

[Basketball IQ]

"Talent" is about the ability to do something. Eric Snow was a better passer and defender than Kyrie Irving. Was he therefore more talented?

No... Because what Kyrie Irving does is better than what Eric Snow did. It's like Draymond Green vs Balke Griffing. Draymond is the more well-rounded player, but Blake Griffin's scoring + passing is much more impactful than Draymond's overall game.

[Phoenix]

How many pages did we get to for the last thread where Reggie was being argued? 25 or so? Let's aim for 30 this time around guys.

[tpols]

No... Because what Kyrie Irving does is better than what Eric Snow did. It's like Draymond Green vs Balke Griffing. Draymond is the more well-rounded player, but Blake Griffin's scoring + passing is much more impactful than Draymond's overall game.

You're conflating what your original argument was with this post. So on one hand, you break everything down rigidly ~ passing, defense, scoring, rebounding... but in this case you recognize that a big gap in scoring ability can overcome not being as well rounded.

[Real Men Wear Green]

No... Because what Kyrie Irving does is better than what Eric Snow did. It's like Draymond Green vs Balke Griffing. Draymond is the more well-rounded player, but Blake Griffin's scoring + passing is much more impactful than Draymond's overall game.

Your evaluation of "impact" takes us even further from what the word talent means. And Nique didn't have high impact? Really?

[Basketball IQ]

You're conflating what your original argument was with this post. So on one hand, you break everything down rigidly ~ passing, defense, scoring, rebounding... but in this case you recognize that a big gap in scoring ability can overcome not being as well rounded.

Because there's not a huge disparity between Clyde and Butler when it comes to scoring. I would give Clyde the slight edge in scoring and maybe rebounding, but Butler has much better intangibles, defense, and passing. That is the dealbreaker for me. I still don't understand how anyone in their right mind would say Reggie is better than Butler. I could understand Clyde being better but Reggie? Hell No.

[Basketball IQ]

You're conflating what your original argument was with this post. So on one hand, you break everything down rigidly ~ passing, defense, scoring, rebounding... but in this case you recognize that a big gap in scoring ability can overcome not being as well rounded.

Nique was impactful but Butler brings much more value with his defense, passing, and intangibles. If you have both players, equal rosters, Butler will always come out ahead imo.

[3ball]

"Talent" is about the ability to do something. Eric Snow was a better passer and defender than Kyrie Irving. Was he therefore more talented?

When you say "the ability to do something", aka talent, you're talking primarily about scoring - that's basketball... Otoh, football players make pretty good defenders and the first thing they teach in 3rd grade P.E. is a chest or bounce pass.. only scoring is actual basketball

Ultimately, you're simply treating the most important thing in the game and the only direct correlation to winning - scoring - as if it's a secondary category like a frieking rebound or pass

[Real Men Wear Green]

When you say "the ability to do something", aka talent, you're talking primarily about scoring - that's basketball... Otoh, football players make pretty good defenders and the first thing they teach in 3rd grade P.E. is a chest or bounce pass.. only scoring is actual basketball

Ultimately, you're simply treating the most important thing in the game and the only direct correlation to winning - scoring - as if it's a secondary category like a frieking rebound or pass

It seems as though you've spent almost as much time reading my replies in this thread as you do watching basketball.

[tpols]

Nique was impactful but Butler brings much more value with his defense, passing, and intangibles. If you have both players, equal rosters, Butler will always come out ahead imo.

I've looked at Nique's playoff splits and they're mostly in the negative. He was awful defensively, and generally reckless offensively. He wasn't smart. He was an athlete who blinded people with his athleticism... For instance, you would probably have him over Reggie Miller, when Reggie gave nothing but positive impact. Huge positive impact. Blows him out the water both ways splits wise. And was obviously much clutcher. But in recent times people are enamored with athletes over basketball players.

[3ball]

I've looked at Nique's playoff splits and they're mostly in the negative. He was awful defensively, and generally reckless offensively. He wasn't smart. He was an athlete who blinded people with his athleticism... For instance, you would probably have him over Reggie Miller, when Reggie gave nothing but positive impact. Huge positive impact. Blows him out the water both ways splits wise. And was obviously much clutcher. But in recent times people are enamored with athletes over basketball players.

Who was his sidekick?

I think there's something to a guy getting all the defensive attention so he shoots badly, but the attention he garners elevates an absolute shit roster to 57 wins and 7 games with the Celtics - he carried the Hawks against a super-team and nearly won

Also, I don't think Nique gets credit for his MOVES - f'ing amazing, seriously.. he was a VERY skilled offensive player with great touch and mid-range shooting

(now replace Scottie's 10 on 40% in the 89' ECF with Dominique... Easy 3-peat)

[Keno]

yes, would even say he's a rich mans jordan.

[3ball]

yes, would even say he's a rich mans jordan.

Hmmm... Let's check the eye test

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SUo8skGvl-Q

[tpols]

Who was his sidekick?

I think there's something to a guy getting all the defensive attention so he shoots badly, but the attention he garners elevates an absolute shit roster to 57 wins and 7 games with the Celtics - he carried the Hawks against a super-team and nearly won

Also, I don't think Nique gets credit for his MOVES - f'ing amazing, seriously.. he was a VERY skilled offensive player with great touch and mid-range shooting

(now replace Scottie's 10 on 40% in the 89' ECF with Dominique... Easy 3-peat)

He didn't have one, but looking at the splits Doc Rivers and Kevin Willis outplayed him. Nique shot on 51 TS with -12 overall splits, while having the worst DRTG amongst the heavily utilized players by a lot. How was he not able to play defense while being so athletic? Maybe you could say he was saving his energy for offense, but he shot like shit... so that argument doesn't work. If Lebron ever averaged those efficiencies he would've lost in an early round every time.

[3ball]

He didn't have one, but looking at the splits Doc Rivers and Kevin Willis outplayed him. Nique shot on 51 TS with -12 overall splits, while having the worst DRTG amongst the heavily utilized players by a lot. How was he not able to play defense while being so athletic? Maybe you could say he was saving his energy for offense, but he shot like shit... If Lebron ever averaged these efficiencies he would've lost in an early round every time.

Dominique was tasked with averaging 30, compared to 13 or 14 for rivers/willis

They wouldn't shoot anywhere near Dominique if they were tasked with 30 ppg.. Dominique's 30 was the foundation that allowed competitiveness versus 12-win lottery team .. ditto 87-89 MJ