T/F: Dirk's reputation will never recover unless he wins a title

[DMAVS41]

Good point. I couldn't see Nelson and the '03 Mavs defend Lebron like they did in the finals.

The '03 team had more dominant offensive ability and talent, but the '11 team has better coaching and defense which I believe are more important to winning a title.

Both are better than the '06 team. I think we can all agree on that (or no?).

I like the talent on the 03 team better, but Carlisle is a huge upgrade over Nelson.

I would add though that Nelson really had his finger on the pulse of that team. He got them to play his offense, but also had them really playing quality defense throughout the year.

Like every Mavs team, they really weren't good without Dirk, but back then Dirk could basically go 44 minutes when needed.

I would personally, on talent, rate those teams as 03, 11, and 06 in order from best to worst, but absolutely agree that Rick was a big difference maker over Don and especially Avery.

[Young X]

Another thing I would like to know from Mavs fans is what year did Dirk truly peak?

Some people say he was at his best in '06, some say '11, some even say he peaked the years in between.

His season in 2006 was brilliant all the way up until the finals (I believe he should've been the MVP) but he was more mature and experienced in 2011.

[DMAVS41]

Another thing I would like to know from Mavs fans is what year did Dirk truly peak?

Some people say he was at his best in '06, some say '11, some even say he peaked the years in between.

His season in 2006 was brilliant all the way up until the finals (I believe he should've been the MVP) but he was more mature and experienced in 2011.

I definitely don't think his peak was 06. He was all time good/great starting around 02 season (with the signs of what awaited us as Mavs fans in those last two Spurs games of the 01 playoffs) and continued to improve, but I think there was still a little left to improve upon both mentally and in certain aspects of his game like his post game and passing that occurred in part because of the Heat and Warriors series in 06 and 07. I think he improved his game in 08 in some of those ways and it really showed the last 25 or so games of 08 and into the playoffs in which he was pretty freaking good.

So I personally think peak Dirk was in 09. I think he was mentally better than he had been, he had added a better post game by then, his passing was better than it had ever been...and he still had the spring to his step he did in his true athletic prime for the most part.

So while the 11 playoffs might have been the best Dirk ever played for a certain stretch for a variety of circumstances...I actually think in 09 Dirk was capable of the most on the basketball court.

So if I had to break down his career...it would be;

99 - 00 Raw young pup with amazing potential
01 -02 Developing greatness
03 -07 Playing at an All time great NBA level, but not fully reached potential
08 - 11 Fully reached potential (or close to it)
12 -14 All NBA caliber player
15 Quality player

[Young X]

I definitely don't think his peak was 06. He was all time good/great starting around 02 season (with the signs of what awaited us as Mavs fans in those last two Spurs games of the 01 playoffs) and continued to improve, but I think there was still a little left to improve upon both mentally and in certain aspects of his game like his post game and passing that occurred in part because of the Heat and Warriors series in 06 and 07. I think he improved his game in 08 in some of those ways and it really showed the last 25 or so games of 08 and into the playoffs in which he was pretty freaking good.

So I personally think peak Dirk was in 09. I think he was mentally better than he had been, he had added a better post game by then, his passing was better than it had ever been...and he still had the spring to his step he did in his true athletic prime for the most part.

So while the 11 playoffs might have been the best Dirk ever played for a certain stretch for a variety of circumstances...I actually think in 09 Dirk was capable of the most on the basketball court.

So if I had to break down his career...it would be;

99 - 00 Raw young pup with amazing potential
01 -02 Developing greatness
03 -07 All time great NBA player but not fully reached potential
08 - 11 Fully reached potential (or close to it)
12 -14 All NBA caliber player
15 Quality player

Thanks for the response. It's interesting because '09 might be one of the worst regular seasons of his prime but you would rather have a more experienced and skilled Dirk come playoff time against elite defenses over more potential regular season success.

It's kinda like the debate on Lebron's peak. Was it is around 2010 when his athleticism was at insane levels or years later after his Boston and Dallas series where he became more mature and skilled.

[DMAVS41]

Thanks for the response. It's interesting because '09 might be one of the worst regular seasons of his prime but you would rather have a more experienced and skilled Dirk come playoff time against elite defenses over more potential regular season success.

It's kinda like the debate on Lebron's peak. Was it is around 2010 when his athleticism was at insane levels or years later after his Boston and Dallas series where he became more mature and skilled.

So much is dependent on the team a player plays on though when you start looking at production so closely.

There was nothing in Dirk in 09 that was going to lead to less regular season success. It was a product of being on a good, but not great team. Dampier and Wright probably shouldn't have been in the top 10 of any legit contender rotation...yet they were the 5 and 6 in minutes per game in 09. Josh Howard missed a bunch of games and the defensive make up of that team was really bad.

Give 09 Dirk the 11 roster and I think it's pretty clear it would have been extremely easy for Dirk to average well over 23/7/3 and lead them to around 60 wins.

It's not like in the 09 season Dirk fell off dramatically individually. He averaged 26/8/2.

The Mavs were only +3.7 points per 100 as a team in 09. Compare that to +8.4 in 06, +11.7 in 07, and plus 10.6 in 11.

Those 09 Mavs just weren't that good...even if one were to claim part of that is on Dirk. Surely they wouldn't ever try to argue that he was the main reason for the drop off compared to other years for the team differential.

I think, also, the answer lies in watching what Dirk did in the 09 and 10 playoffs. He averaged 27/9/3 64% TS. You can go back to 08 through 10 playoffs and he averaged 27/10/3 63% TS.

He had never been that efficient that consistently in the playoffs at any stretch in his career.

From 03 through 07 he shot 57% TS...still great on his volume, but something changed in his ability to consistently score better against the best and specific defenses post 07.

This is one reason I think it's obvious 08 through 11 was his true peak years.

Just take a look at this:

From 03-07 Dirk averaged 25/11/3 57% TS in the playoffs

From 08-11 Dirk averaged 27/9/3 62% TS in the playoffs

And, outside of the 11 team, the other teams were not very good at all...yet Dirk was still able to produce consistently at a level in the playoffs he hadn't been able to consistently reproduce.

This is why I was so confident that Dirk could win a ring with the right team....and 11 proved me right.

[Pointguard]

99 - 00 Raw young pup with amazing potential
01 -02 Developing greatness
03 -07 All time great NBA player but not fully reached potential
08 - 11 Fully reached potential (or close to it)
12 -14 All NBA caliber player
15 Quality player

I realize now that its just the way you talk or write things. All time great should be a level beyond regular greatness. Its elite of the elite. After three years a lot of people had questioned why Shaq was in the top 50 greatest. And most people agreed that he wasn't an all-time great just yet. Shaq was at 29ppg 3 blocks per game 13 rebounds lead the league in FG% in his second year.

To think that Dirk in '10, was on a level beyond all time great is mindboggling. And most would not put him on the level as a scorer of a lot of his contemporaries, Lebron, Durant, Kobe, Shaq, a healthy Wade/Tmac, or now S. Curry.

[DMAVS41]

I realize now that its just the way you talk or write things. All time great should be a level beyond regular greatness. Its elite of the elite. After three years a lot of people had questioned why Shaq was in the top 50 greatest. And most people agreed that he wasn't an all-time great just yet. Shaq was at 29ppg 3 blocks per game 13 rebounds lead the league in FG% in his second year.

To think that Dirk in '10, was on a level beyond all time great is mindboggling. And most would not put him on the level as a scorer of a lot of his contemporaries, Lebron, Durant, Kobe, Shaq, a healthy Wade/Tmac, or now S. Curry.

I really don't think so.

There are different levels of all time great. Certainly the 50th best player of all time is "all time great"...

Certainly the 30th best player of all time is "all time great", but also greater than the 50th best player.

So from 03 to 07 I don't think anyone would contest that Dirk was playing at an all time great level.

What they might take issue with is me saying he improved off that level a little from 08 through 11. I think I can defend that claim though...

But nah...you can have different tiers of all time great players.

It's accurate to say Tim Duncan is an all time great player. It's also accurate to say Dirk is an all time great player. Yet Tim Duncan was absolutely greater than Dirk. I don't see any issue there in reality or via semantics even.

I know you hate me and think very low of Dirk, but I really hope you aren't trying to take issue with the claim that Dirk was/is an all time great player.

[Pointguard]

I really don't think so.

There are different levels of all time great. Certainly the 50th best player of all time is "all time great"...

Certainly the 30th best player of all time is "all time great", but also greater than the 50th best player.

So from 03 to 07 I don't think anyone would contest that Dirk was playing at an all time great level.

What they might take issue with is me saying he improved off that level a little from 08 through 11. I think I can defend that claim though...

But nah...you can have different tiers of all time great players.

It's accurate to say Tim Duncan is an all time great player. It's also accurate to say Dirk is an all time great player. Yet Tim Duncan was absolutely greater than Dirk. I don't see any issue there in reality or via semantics even.

I know you hate me and think very low of Dirk, but I really hope you aren't trying to take issue with the claim that Dirk was/is an all time great player.

I don't hate you or think low of Dirk. Just that before '07 I don't have him as an all time great. Great is fine, but the best of the best usually have something else going outside of their MVP which happened in '07, like a ring, a scoring title, a rebound title. Or even an obvious distinction like Step Curry does where he's the best shooter in the game without question. Before '07 Dirk didn't have what most greats have.

[DMAVS41]

I don't hate you or think low of Dirk. Just that before '07 I don't have him as an all time great. Great is fine, but the best of the best usually have something else going outside of their MVP which happened in '07, like a ring, a scoring title, a rebound title. Or even an obvious distinction like Step Curry does where he's the best shooter in the game without question. Before '07 Dirk didn't have what most greats have.

Oh...I see the confusion.

I was talking about his level of play. That from 03 through 07 he was playing the game at an all time great level or similar to the level of certain all time great players.

I should have been more clear and I'll edit the post.

I wasn't making a statement that by 07 he should be known as an "all time great" player in the way you define it.

I think Curry is a good example. He perhaps hasn't done enough in your view to be considered an all time great player...but he's clearly playing the game at an all time great level.


That was my point.

[Pointguard]

Oh...I see the confusion.

I was talking about his level of play. That from 03 through 07 he was playing the game at an all time great level or similar to the level of certain all time great players.

I should have been more clear and I'll edit the post.

I wasn't making a statement that by 07 he should be known as an "all time great" player in the way you define it.

I think Curry is a good example. He perhaps hasn't done enough in your view to be considered an all time great player...but he's clearly playing the game at an all time great level.


That was my point.

My fault, you actually did say "level" of play.

[masonanddixon]

I like the talent on the 03 team better, but Carlisle is a huge upgrade over Nelson.

I would add though that Nelson really had his finger on the pulse of that team. He got them to play his offense, but also had them really playing quality defense throughout the year.

Like every Mavs team, they really weren't good without Dirk, but back then Dirk could basically go 44 minutes when needed.

I would personally, on talent, rate those teams as 03, 11, and 06 in order from best to worst, but absolutely agree that Rick was a big difference maker over Don and especially Avery.

02-03 was my favorite version of the Mavs but their defense was atrocious and Dirk wasn't half the player then that he was in 10-11.

10-11 had some of the best defense I have ever seen.

[DMAVS41]

02-03 was my favorite version of the Mavs but their defense was atrocious and Dirk wasn't half the player then that he was in 10-11.

10-11 had some of the best defense I have ever seen.

The defense was not atrocious. You might be thinking of the 04 team.

[ArbitraryWater]

7 first round exits

Anddddddddddddd I've unlocked you, the troll is showing.

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We talked about this one, from 2006-2011 Dirk was playing at pretty much the same level (while his game obv. changed).

2003 Dirk isn't much off, at all. Crazy consistency.