Scottie Pippen won 55 games with Horrace Grant as a #2 option

[LostCause]

Myers was the last minute "replacement" for PEAK MJ. MJ averaged 33/7/6 in 93'; Myers 0/0/0 because he couldn't make a NBA roster.

Kukoc was drafted several years prior. Wennington was the third/fourth string C that year (he was the 11th man in the playoffs).

The Kukoc thing is funny, we always hear about him in connection to 94' (his rookie season) but never hear a word about him for the following seasons when he was a bigger contributor. I wonder why?

The bolded isn't relevant. Not saying Myers was so good but we see all the time players who weren't in the NBA finally get the opportunity and do well. Covington, Whiteside, Sessions etc. The point also isn't that these players were on Jordan's level, the point is that they provided quality depth. Which can't be denied.

You forgot to address Kerr, but I'm pretty sure if you were talking about how "stacked" the Bulls were you wouldn't have made that mistake would you?

As for Kukoc, not sure what you're on about. He was drafted prior but didn't play for Chicago until 94. Can't speak for others but I don't underrate him. He was arguably more integral to the Bulls success than Rodman was, at least after 96.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...284-story.html

Team A: 55 wins, nearly win the #1 seed despite injuries to key players and take the EC champs to 7 (who took Houston to 7)
Team B: 45 wins, lose in the first round

A and B are not the same...and B was able to sign Rony Seiklay and get 17/10 from him; Myers was 8/3.

Once again you're being intellectually dishonest. If you're aware of the injuries to key players and all that to the Bulls then you're also aware of the even more injury-plagued Magic (Almost all their starters played around 65 games, with Penny only 59). They lost in the 1st round with a wrecked roster. That same 17/10 Seiklay basically broke his foot in Game 3 (After disappearing the first 2 games). The Magic still brought the Heat (Who won 61 games) to brink of elimination in Game 5 and lost by 8 points (1st round was Best-of-5 then). Miami went on to the ECF. Penny's "help" in that series was worse than LeBrons in 09 against Orlando
https://www.basketball-reference.com...c-vs-heat.html

As pointed out above, with Penny that Magic team was on a 52-win pace. If they upset Miami, which they certainly could've, they would've ended in the same spot those 94 Bulls did. 2nd round

[Overdrive]

Exactly.





Myers was the last minute "replacement" for PEAK MJ. MJ averaged 33/7/6 in 93'; Myers 0/0/0 because he couldn't make a NBA roster.

Kukoc was drafted several years prior. Wennington was the third/fourth string C that year (he was the 11th man in the playoffs).

The Kukoc thing is funny, we always hear about him in connection to 94' (his rookie season) but never hear a word about him for the following seasons when he was a bigger contributor. I wonder why?



Exactly. He is a bum, but you have to pull those names to find other examples. Also notice Portland 2000 is on the list too? Who was their leader?



Team A: 55 wins, nearly win the #1 seed despite injuries to key players and take the EC champs to 7 (who took Houston to 7)
Team B: 45 wins, lose in the first round

A and B are not the same...and B was able to sign Rony Seiklay and get 17/10 from him; Myers was 8/3.

Myers was a last minute roster fill up, but that doesn't mean that the cast sans MJ didn't get stronger that off season. Kukoc definately was an upgrade over the 4th, then 3rd option the Bulls had before. And yes he became better every passing season and the Bulls were stacked by '96. That doesn't make Jordan a lesser player.

The Bulls lost to the East champs. One of the weaker ones at that. The Magic lost to the Heat in 5. The eventual EC finalist. Yes it's not the same. But the Magic without Shaq were talented, likewise were the Bulls. Also the Heat without Lebron were capable of making noise in the playoffs as evidenced a year after, but Bosh's medical constitution robbed us of an interesting '15 East season.

[Roundball_Rock]

The simplest reason why the Bulls were able to continue to do well and teams like LeBrons Cavs aren't is because of system and personnel. You also see how the Spurs are continually able to do well despite turnover for the same reason.

That may explain "LeBron ball" but says nothing for all the other teams. The Lakers didn't have a system? Won 5 chips and made 9 finals playing streetball?

Paxson was still on the 94 Bulls, and let's not undersell Kukoc. He was their 2nd leading scorer per 36 and he came off the bench, so his bench production was extremely valuable. Williams also wasn't really "replaced", he averaged double figures against Cleveland.

Paxson was on the Bulls only in spirit. He played 27 games and averaged 13 MPG. He was done.

Kukoc their fourth leading scorer at 10.9. Of course his "per 36" will be higher since he played in shorter spurts.

Williams averaged 6/4/1 on 15 MPG in the playoffs.

With the additions to the team, the leftover personnel and coaching philosophies, the team was obviously going to be okay

Said...nobody at the time. Even Phil Jackson said 42-40 was the best case scenario.

So again, let's not underrate the contributions of these guys.

Again, it is hilarious these guys get credit for 94' but NEVER are mentioned for 1995-1998 when MJ was back.

Bill Wennington averaged 1/1/1 on 7 MPG in the playoffs.

[97 bulls]

Hmmm let's see because Pippen himself literally called it a "wasted season" (sorry not "lost") and said he didn't try as hard and wasn't as motivated. Oh and he was an all-star too that year.

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bu...k-fax-1995-nba

“This is a wasted season,” he said. “It all started last summer when they tried to trade me behind my back, never came to me about it and then lied to me when I asked them about it. I was so upset I hardly worked out. I did not report to camp in good shape and things just got worse. Now I see what Michael went through when he first came here,” he said. “He sacrificed a lot of his game to make his teammates better. I’m sacrificing in some areas for the same reason but not getting the same result because we no longer have as much talent.”

Do you really think in those other seasons where a superstar left, that the same lack of motivation was never present?

I didn't say Grant ascended. I said he was in his prime. BJ was either ascending or in his prime. Who cares. The point is its not like Jordan left a bunch of rookies or old dudes. He left a championship supporting cast that were in their primes and had a ton of experience having won 3 straight titles and had been to 5 straight ECF.

The Warriors lost Durant, Curry, and Klay. There situation was not remotely the same.

It was a "wasted" season in that he wanted to be traded and wasnt, he wanted his contract to be renegotiated and wasnt. Not because he didnt try to win. Which is the narrative you tried to promote.

Grant and Armstrong were what they were when Jordan was there. That's my point.

Curry and Klay were contending for a title well before Durant showed up. Hell they were beating the Durant led Thunder.

[HoopsNY]

Most of the league makes the playoffs. All the teams you listed 1) struggled to get above .500 2) lost in the first round. The Bulls are the outlier in performance.

Bulls win 55 games because they were well coached and Mike left a winning culture. For one, he cultivated a defensive mentality in those guys. And Pippen, Armstrong, and Grant were all hitting their prime. How exactly is that a detriment to Mike's career or how does it in any way diminish what he did?

Furthermore, the Bulls only coast through the 1st round due to a depleted Cleveland team. Hot Rod Williams, Brad Daughtery, and Larry Nance all missed the playoffs. But why aren't you mentioning that?

You also excluded examples of teams who didn't make the playoffs at all.

I only left out one player and that's Russell. If you're referring to LeBron's 2nd Cavs stint then I can get into that too. But that team was very unique when we consider that LeBron gutted the team midway through. That was another set of bad GM moves on LeBron's part. But i'll give you LeBron and I'll give you Russell. Are we going to ignore the rest?

Yeah but when he left Orlando...the other four starters remained. What happened? You can poke holes into any given individual case but the overall trend is crystal clear, with only one outlier.

The Magic won 45 games and Penny Hardaway and Dennis Scott missed significant time that season. Hardaway started 59 games and Scott 62 games. Why are you ignoring that?

The Cavs were a 47 win team the Bulls swept 4-0 the previous year and beat 4-2 the year before that.

Yes, and that 47 team was depleted with injuries by playoff time. I've mentioned this several times. That Cavs team was consistently thumped by Chicago in large part due to MJ.

It is interesting injuries count for the Cavs and not the Bulls. If the Bulls had normal health from Pippen and Grant (plus others), they would be the #1 seed, not the #3, and playing the Heat. You didn't run those calculations?

You're not getting it. Williams-Daughtery-Nance missed the ENTIRE playoffs.

What's overlooked is the importance of Horace Grant (and failing to replace him). It is funny, the MJ crowd likes to ignore Grant/Rodman but the Bulls suffered more when Grant left than when the GOAT left.

So much so that Grant didn't win a chip in 1994 and Mike returns for a full season in 1995-96 to lead his team to 72 wins and a title? C'mon man. At that rate, you might as well say Grant > Mj.

I notice you mentioned Hot Rod Williams for Cleveland but didn't mention Grant, Cartwright, Scott Williams all leaving after 94'. So 2 starters (on top of MJ the year before, so 3 of 5 93' team starters gone) plus a third rotation member from their front line.

Because Chicago added Ron Harper. Cartwright barely played 42 games in the 1993-94 season. Scott Williams played in 38 games in 1993-94. And honestly, those guys by 1994 were addition by subtraction. It gave Will Perdue a chance to start who was a much better fit at that rate than those guys. And again, those Cleveland players ALL missed the playoffs.

[HoopsNY]

So Wade being hurt more in 14' doesn't count but being hurt in 15' does? Wade is hurt every year so it's a weak excuse. Wade being hurt is baked into the 14' performance with LeBron.

Fair point. But it doesn't take away from the fact that Bosh had played a full season the previous year. Remove Allen, Bosh for 40 games, and LeBron...and you don't think a significant drop would occur? It's not like they won 66 games and dropped to 37. They won 54.

Bosh was done with health issues (not injury) on February 11. The Heat were 22-30 at that point; the Bulls were 34-13 at the same point.

Good point, how many of those games did he play alongside Wade? And what was their record in the games they both played together? I'm willing to concede on this one as you have raised a good point.

Shane Battier who played 20 MPG is mentioned but the additions of Deng, Whiteside, and Dragic are not.

My point wasn't to elevate Battier over those guys. My point was to mention his defensive presence. When you have new young talent, you don't simply mold them into a successful team right away. Surely you can reason with that? You can have all the young talent in the world, it means nothing when they're new and developing within a team, veteran players, or a system.

That was 34 year old Bird. I'm talking about near prime Bird and the 89' season when Bird missed 76 games. They went 42-40 (57-25 the year before).

Fair enough. They were still a playoff team.

[Roundball_Rock]

The bolded isn't relevant.

Sure it is. Myers was not good enough to make a NBA roster in 92'. He was not good enough to make a NBA roster in 93'. He was not good enough to make a NBA roster in 94'. The only reason he did was MJ freed up a roster spot by retiring a month before the season started (i.e., the top free agents were already signed). That is who they "replaced" peak "GOAT" and his 33/7/6 with, not Rony Seiklay or Luol Deng.

time players who weren't in the NBA finally get the opportunity and do well. Covington, Whiteside, Sessions etc

You are comparing Whiteside and Covington to Myers? Those guys proved to be good NBA players and stuck. Myers was out of the NBA again for the 97' season, came back for one season in 98' and put up 2/1/0, and then was done for good.

You forgot to address Kerr

Thanks. Kerr was a good player but MJ stans like to say he was brought in as part of a "post-MJ" plan. Kerr was signed before MJ retired and he was Orlando's 12th man at the time. Kerr turned out to be much better than expected fortunately.

As for Kukoc, not sure what you're on about. He was drafted prior but didn't play for Chicago until 94

Same as above: MJ stans point to him as part of a "post-MJ" plan when MJ had nothing to do with it.

If you're aware of the injuries to key players and all that to the Bulls then you're also aware of the even more injury-plagued Magic

You can't have it both ways. Do injuries count or not? You bring them up for Cleveland but not Chicago, for Miami in 2015 but not Miami in 2014. Pick a rule and we can go from there.

Yes, it is a shame Orlando had injuries in 97'. Seiklay missed 8 games, Grant 15, Scott 16, Anderson 19, and Penny 23.

How about 96'? You guys keep acting like injuries only happen the year after the GOAT caliber guy leaves (except miraculously the 94' Bulls, who had zero injuries!). Shaq missed 28 games, Grant 19, Anderson 5. So less total injuries but more top end injuries with Shaq missing more time than Penny did and Grant missing more time than he did the next year.

That same 17/10 Seiklay basically broke his foot in Game 3 (After disappearing the first 2 games)

He played 29 MPG in his three games. Earlier you are hyping guys who played 7 MPG.

he Magic still brought the Heat (Who won 61 games) to brink of elimination in Game 5 and lost by 8 points (1st round was Best-of-5 then)

Yes, with Penny scoring 42 and 41 in those games, and lost. The Lakers got to Game 5 too without Magic. It happens. There is a reason the NBA moved from 5 games to 7 games. When you need 3 wins more flukes can happen.

As pointed out above, with Penny that Magic team was on a 52-win pace. If they upset Miami, which they certainly could've, they would've ended in the same spot those 94 Bulls did

That's interesting but meaningless unless the same "what if" is applied to other teams.

A healthy Bulls teams wins 63 (win pace with Pippen, Grant), not 52, and would have had home court against the Knicks and presumably won. The home team won every game and no road team had won a Game 7 in well over a decade.

So what is your point? Instead of comparing 55 wins and 45 we should compare (theoretical) 63 wins versus 52? That net delta is basically the same.

[Roundball_Rock]

Myers was a last minute roster fill up, but that doesn't mean that the cast sans MJ didn't get stronger that off season. Kukoc definately was an upgrade over the 4th, then 3rd option the Bulls had before. And yes he became better every passing season and the Bulls were stacked by '96. That doesn't make Jordan a lesser player.

All true.

The Bulls lost to the East champs. One of the weaker ones at that. The Magic lost to the Heat in 5. The eventual EC finalist.

Wait...so the mighty Knicks who were MJ's best "tough" comp were now weaker than the 97' Heat who got crushed in the ECF (with MJ shooting 39%)? The Knicks who came within one three pointer of the chip.

The Orlando stuff is interesting speculation but requires that they 1) beat Miami 2) win in the second round. Who was that second round team? A 57 win Knicks team that would have been heavily favored over Orlando. Plus, if we give Orlando 7 bonus wins by erasing injuries we have to erase injuries for New York can give them fictitious bonus wins too. It is disingenuous to grant Orlando 7 wins without making any adjustments for the rest of the East.

I find it interesting the Bulls making it to Game in 7 of the second round is dismissed but now we are hearing about how great getting to Game 5 (winning 2 games) of the first round is an achievement.

[Roundball_Rock]

Bulls win 55 games because they were well coached and Mike left a winning culture

So MJ gets credit for a winning culture but all those other teams didn't have a winning culture and great coaching? Notice it is MJ left a winning culture, not Chicago built a winning culture.

How exactly is that a detriment to Mike's career or how does it in any way diminish what he did?

It doesn't. It is evidence of MJ having a great team, which people bring up only because MJ stans 1) say MJ won by himself 2) keep dissing every other legend soley on the basis of...team success (partly by saying everyone else had loaded teams).

MJ stans do it to themselves. In reality him having a great or bad or mediocre team means 0 to how great he was but MJ stans create this paradigm.

Hot Rod Williams, Brad Daughtery, and Larry Nance all missed the playoffs. But why aren't you mentioning that?

Because it is meaningless. We can't cherry pick when injuries count and they don't. If we exclude injuries for everyone, the Bulls aren't facing them.

Anyway, you are acting like those were fluke injuries and that those guys roared back in the coming years. Those were career enders for Daughtery and Nance (as in, 0 games played after that--not in the Rose sense). Williams was their fourth or fifth best player. Nance's injury opened up room for Tyrone Hill, a future all-star.

It is funny how we are hearing of Cavs' injuries in 1994, the implication being they were warriors before that. BS. The Cavs had injury problems again and again, especially with their stars Price and Daughtery.

So much so that Grant didn't win a chip in 1994 and Mike returns for a full season in 1995-96 to lead his team to 72 wins and a title?

Mike returns...and they do worse in the playoffs than they did the previous year. All conveniently ignored.

Because Chicago added Ron Harper. Cartwright barely played 42 games in the 1993-94 season. Scott Williams played in 38 games in 1993-94. And honestly, those guys by 1994 were addition by subtraction

Harper isn't relevant to their front line. That was their problem.

Cartwright was the starter! Yeah, he missed half the season. Imagine if he played 82 games! 63 wins with Pippen and Grant. Cartwright get them to what, 67? Williams. Worth 1 game? 68? Injuries are part of the sport.

[Roundball_Rock]

Good point, how many of those games did he play alongside Wade? And what was their record in the games they both played together?

They went 13-15 with both of them. Stop making excuses for the Heat. They sucked no matter which way you slice it. Why the shock? They were bad when LeBron was out the lineup when he was there. It carried over to the full season.

They were still a playoff team.

With a 15 game drop-off.

[HoopsNY]

So I think we're on two different wavelengths here. For one, I'm not one to argue that those early 90s Bulls teams weren't solid. They were. You're right about the Bulls as a whole, (with Phil), leaving a winning culture. But I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who was considered to be a greater leader or tougher competitor in NBA history than Mike. Hence why I said leaving a winning culture.

There are no tangible facts to prove this, just what his teammates and his opponents said about him. He took guys who weren't the biggest names and made them into winners. But that doesn't mean the Bulls didn't have solid teams between 1990-1993. They did. And they should be credited for that. Pippen was one of the greatest players of all time. Grant one of the best role players. Bj and Paxson some of the best shooters.

But having said that, what you're doing is using arbitrary numbers and arguments to diminish MJs importance. I'm not even talking about Cleveland's season in 1993-94. What I'm saying is you can't deplete an entire roster, then expect they'll be competitive in the first round. If Cleveland had a full roster, then Chicago doesn't even advance into the second round.

But even if we don't rely on that, then you're still creating arbitrary lines to define your argument. We discredit Bird's leaving his final year and Boston winning 48 games, but we HAVE to rely on the year he was injured where they won 42 games? Why?

Why is winning 1 round of the playoffs sufficient? How come it's not, "Chicago couldn't even get to the ECF" without MJ? I'm not advocating either. I just find this discourse to be silly.

[Indian guy]

A testament to Pippen being a top 5 player, Phil being one of the GOAT coaches and the fact that it was a championship-experienced roster that was in its 6th season together (1989-1994).

It certainly wasn't some kind of carry job by Pippen though. 22 ppg is not that much. And when 2 of your teammates made the All Star team (Grant and Armstrong), what it means is that Bulls got it done as a team. And that's we learned about them post-MJ - the fact that he did play on a good team.

[HoopsNY]

You also have to consider when you look at the Bulls' rosters, or supporting casts, how do they compare to that of the:


Warriors from 2014-2018
Heat from 2010-2012
Celtics 1982-1987
Lakers 1979-1987
Sixers of 1983
Lakers with Wilt-Goodrich-Baylor-West
Celtics of the late '50s-60s
Kareem-Dandridge-Big O and co.
Frazier with Monroe-Reed-Debusschere
Kobe+Shaq+Rice+Horry and co
Bad Boys Pistons

When you look at the greatest support casts of all time, I don't think it's unfair for people to think that Chicago isn't one of them. But to say that the Bulls didn't have great teams would be wrong.

And for Chicago to go 6/6 despite not having the best supporting cast ever or amongst the best ever is something pretty telling.

[guy]

It was a "wasted" season in that he wanted to be traded and wasnt, he wanted his contract to be renegotiated and wasnt. Not because he didnt try to win. Which is the narrative you tried to promote.

Grant and Armstrong were what they were when Jordan was there. That's my point.

Curry and Klay were contending for a title well before Durant showed up. Hell they were beating the Durant led Thunder.

The hell are you talking about? He literally said he hardly worked out in the offseason, came into the season out of shape and it got worse from there. There's no argument here. Thats straight from the horse's mouth that he didn't try as hard. And when I say "try" I don't mean guys aren't trying hard during the game. Very likely though, they probably aren't as disciplined when it doesn't look like they have as much of a chance to win, aren't playing for a new contract, etc. especially when they have already experienced a certain level of winning beforehand. No, the other examples may have not been less motivated for the same reasons as Pippen i.e. getting shopped around, but they may have other reasons i.e. they just lost their best player after going close to a decade on deep playoff runs and would rather take it easy not believing they have a chance.

Yes, and my point is Grant and Armstrong were still good players younger and in their prime and given their objective to prove something without Jordan, they were still just as motivated as ever before (not to mention Grant was in a contract year.)

The point is they lost 3 superstars plus Iguodala. And they hardly resemble the Warriors team prior to Durant - no Steph, Klay, Iggy, Barnes, or Bogut. I think they may literally have no one from that team but Draymond. Its not remotely close to a comparable situation.

[HoopsNY]

A testament to Pippen being a top 5 player, Phil being one of the GOAT coaches and the fact that it was a championship-experienced roster that was in its 6th season together (1989-1994).

It certainly wasn't some kind of carry job by Pippen though. 22 ppg is not that much. And when 2 of your teammates made the All Star team (Grant and Armstrong), what it means is that Bulls got it done as a team. And that's we learned about them post-MJ - the fact that he did play on a good team.

I think you're spot on about that. Anyone who says the Bulls didn't have a great team is lying. First of all, you don't win a championship without having a great team.