What's the argument for LeBron NOT being the GOAT

[HylianNightmare]

Losing finals record, pretty simple

[Smoke117]

Michael Jordan. Kareem Abdul Jabbar. He's probably 3rd, though.

[SpaceJam2]

This is all I know:







CASE CLOSED

Response?

[Overdrive]

Response?

Faulty logic, selective stats and straight lies.

[Micku]

I think honestly, it's been slightly disappointing an didn't live up to the potential he had with his teams. It's been a up and down thing with him. His lowest, being lower than most superstars that I can think of with 2011 Heat. His highest being 2016.

The fact that he teamed up with the Wade and Bosh, I always felt was a bit of a blow. And that he lost badly in 2011. Even in 2013 where the Heat won, LeBron played poorly or the Spurs just figured it out. Dared him to shoot, and he couldn't do it. He came through in the last two games, but it was still eh.

His time with the Cavs are better offensively. Defensively suffered.

MJ was the best consistently on the two way player. Best scorer, one of the best wing defenders. He dominated his era more so than other top players. Like when Wilt and Russell were against each other. Wilt dominated the stats, while Russell got the rings. Kareem was great, but his prime was in the 70s. His longevity was amazing, but when he won the bulk of his rings, he was arguably not the best player. It was 1a and 1b. And by the end of the last two, Magic was the best player.

MJ was the best throughout.

Statistically, LBJ and MJ are pretty much on par, but with LeBron leading several advance stats. Some of it is due to longevity, but in return, that's what makes MJ so great. He did it at a pace which was pretty crazy. And he was out most of the year in his second year, and retired a year and half in his prime. He accomplish more in less time than LeBron James. It took LeBron more time to pass him up points, some advance stats, and he still not there in terms of accolades. No DPOY, not enough MVPs, not enough rings or finals mvp, and etc.

LeBron has something over most stars. That's his longevity. He is a machine. He is still playing at a level that makes him top 3. MJ longevity is great too, but not as good as LeBron I would say. You could argue about the rules in today's game, coaching, and other stuff help the perimeter players nowadays compared to back then. And that's true. But it's still impressive.

But comparing them saying MJ wouldn't have done this or LeBron James wouldn't have done this is more juicy and fruitful discussion than it have any merit. You have to take into context the the rules and play styles, and they are too different in the 80s to now. But there are holes within LeBron James that I personally do not like and I feel like he isn't as skilled as MJ, Kobe or KD when it comes to scoring moves. He has a more limited move set, but unstoppable due to his athletic ability. FT shooting is a problem. Shooting in general is spotty.

There are a few players who have case for GOAT.

MJ cuz he dominated the league unlike no other. He did more in less time than LeBron. Got the best stats of his era, and some stats are still unbroken, and won at the same time. Maximize his team potential.

Kareem, longevity. Won at every level. Was a top player for like 16 years. Hold the records.

LeBron prove that he could carry a team to the finals who has no business of being there. He may surpass Kareem longevity, and setting records because of his consistent level of play. Dude is like the John Cena of the NBA lol

There are others tho.

I don't think there is a GOAT. I think there are tiers. LeBron belong in that GOAT tier to me. I mean, honestly. MJ at his peak, LeBron at his peak, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, and etc. That's some of the best individual basketball you'll ever see in their era. They never played against each other peak to peak, so it's hard to say. Everything else comes with context. Who can carry their team, who maximize the most, who is the best individual player, who win the most? Some of those questions mean more to ppl than others. All are subjective to the person.

[ImKobe]

Faulty logic, selective stats and straight lies.

This.

More Playoff games since 1st rounds aren't BO5 anymore
0 game-winners/tying shots in 9 Finals
3/9 Finals record
most Finals losses in the modern era
lost multiple times with HCA/1st seed in the EC
has beaten less 50+ win teams than Kobe, MJ and Duncan, despite playing in more games.

Record vs 50+win playoff teams


Kobe 25-10

Jordan 20-7

Shaq 18-9

Duncan 18-10

Lebron 15-10

[superduper]

The fact that Bran stans have the innate need to scream it at the top of their lungs 20x a day to eachother until they convince themselves of it.

In one word, insecurity.

[jstern]

Just of the top of my head, 2011, getting embarrassed by Dwight Howard while having the team with the best record in the league and being the league's MVP. Better players who dominated in the clutch and never lost as favorites, such as Michael Jordan.

Lebron is good, just not GOAT good.

[SpaceJam]

Who would you rather be? A guy like lebron who averages triple doubles or a guy like kobe who is the one being relied to when the going gets tough, who is being relied to for last shots. Coz for me, triple doubles means nothing if my team doesnt trust me in crunch time. Its like winning 73 games but not winning the ring.

Would rather be known as someone who's generally ranked in the lower half of the top 10, even as low as 12th instead of a cemented top 3 player

knicksman, you've done it again

[3ball]

.
MJ's career PER peaked over 30, while Lebron's peaked at 28, and Backpicks says MJ had the higher peak:







And Lebron has never carried a bad team - he missed the playoffs 3 times with lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year), so he never carried bad teams to low seeds like MJ, and therefore never faced tough 1st round matchups like MJ (8 vs 1 seed).. He infact only made the playoffs with good team/high seeds his entire career, which gave him easy 1st round matchups, thereby padding his early career playoff resume..

So MJ had the goat peak and carried teams more - lebron only has longevity, which means nothing
.

[knicksman]

Would rather be known as someone who's generally ranked in the lower half of the top 10, even as low as 12th instead of a cemented top 3 player

knicksman, you've done it again

sorry, I dont need the approval of the media. The approval of the goat, the other greats is all I need. And if the goat says only kobe deserves to be compared to me then why I should care about the media. Quality > quantity. The opinion of the goat is more than enough to beat all medias opinion

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Just of the top of my head, 2011, getting embarrassed by Dwight Howard while having the team with the best record in the league and being the league's MVP. Better players who dominated in the clutch and never lost as favorites, such as Michael Jordan.

Lebron is good, just not GOAT good.

Orlando was missing their star guard too and had to start a literal AND-1 player as PG Cavs were HEAVY favorites with HCA

Difference is Dwight played on both ends and was dominant on O and D

Not to mention what happened next postseason with the Celtics with Cavs also as heavy favorites

Then he "dominated" a sht conference with 2 other all-stars

Paul George was by far the 2nd best playoff performer the Least had during Brans run.

George goes West and upset b2b 1st rounds as the favorite outplayed by Joe fcking Ingles then CJ Mccollum

The best Least teams were Celtics team led by a 5'6 player who was a bench warmer in the West
Then a Craptors team with Defrozen who's arguably the worst playoff performer of all-time consistently shtting the bed getting shut down by JR Smith. Now we see Defrozen in a real conference......

Lebrons playoff record VS Least teams VS West teams from 2011-2018

VS Least: 96-27 (78%)
VS West: 18-27 (40%)

That is a ****ing insane stat. During his finals streak this dude lost just as many games to West playoff teams as Least...... despite playing 78 more games VS Least teams.

That just shows the massive discrepancy in the conferences. And Bran still needed 2 all-stars, 2 of the best 5 players in the conference on his team to have real success

Then he goes West and misses the playoffs......

Not to mention him only being a real impact defender under Spo from 11-13 who's one of the GOAT defensive coaches. His other best seasons were 09/10 and be was able to get by on not playing D and turning it up in the playoffs against joke meme teams with glaring holes like Defrozen Craptors or midget led Celts or Playoff P Pacers

He's a complete fraud for anyone that can analyze the game with nuance and objectivity.

[Gileraracer]

If LeBron has GOAT impact/ability to carry team, GOAT ring/peak, and GOAT longevity then what's the argument

GOAT ability to carry a team?



Then why this nikku needed 3 superstar teams so far and didn't win shit without one?

[sportjames23]

Just of the top of my head, 2011, getting embarrassed by Dwight Howard while having the team with the best record in the league and being the league's MVP. Better players who dominated in the clutch and never lost as favorites, such as Michael Jordan.

Lebron is good, just not GOAT good.

Period.

[Walk on Water]

What