MJ won 6 rings in the format we'll see in 2020

[3ball]

It's amazing then that very same team could lose the only player that mattered yet still go on to win 55 games and nearly make the conference finals without him

And since we care so much about the opinion of Isiah

https://www.slamonline.com/slam-tv/i...ichael-jordan/

I'll take Isiah's real-time thoughts in the moment when it was all happening, than a revised opinion 30 years later that aligns with his career objectives and "brand" (corporate shill)

Regarding the 55 wins.... Notice how the best teams of this era - Spurs/Warriors - they play 55-caliber-style ball without Duncan and KD.. It's almost like to achieve a rare goat-level dynasty, you must achieve a great brand of basketball and teamwork, regardless of talent level.. You think goat-level dynasties are just based on talent and play shit brands that can't compete without their star?.. They wouldn't be goat dynasties if that's the brand they played, and would lose championships instead of winning them.. You have to play great basketball to 3-peat or be anywhere near that level and the Bulls learned how to play that quality of basketball - they certainly didn't win based off talent - you can't point to their roster and show me where it's stacked

Now it's a testament to MJ's supremely goat skill that he could fit a goat PER/production/stats into that level of quality teamwork.. And that's the knock on Lebron - his ball-dominance prevents him from fitting goat stats into a great brand of teamwork and basketball.. MJ succeeded in doing so, and infact is the only guy to win titles as scoring champ - most guys win scoring titles during their "hot dog" years where they go all out, and then have to tone it down to actually win rings.. but MJ was the only guy whose game was naturally optimal enough to hot dog it to a scoring title every year and win the title with goat teamwork too.

So Lebron's ball-dominance doesn't fit in with great ball movement to allow a goat brand or goat dynasty, and he's also an overrated carry-job guy of weaker teams.. His 07' Finals run was accomplished during a decade when 4 other weak casts also made the Finals (09' Dwight, Kidd twice and 01' AI) - so he should get knocked more for ceding the easy run to Dwight in 09' and not commanding sufficient double-teams to free up teammates and win that series as the significant favorite that he was.. His conference didn't require a strong cast to make the Finals, but he couldn't make it in 09/10 and stacked the deck thereafter to ensure Finals run.. So he's a weasel..

Heck, MJ beat a better team in 89' (#1 SRS Cavs) than Lebron lost to in 09' and with a weaker cast (6 seed underdog instead of 1 seed favorite.. and 09' Mo > 89' Pippen).. That's how we know MJ would've won easily as in 09' as the massive favorite the Cavs were - he beat a better team with a worse cast in 89'!.. And he wouldn't have been exploited by a no-double-team strategy like Lebron did, so that would've freed up teammates more, plus SVG has to deal with the off-ball aspect of defending MJ (doubling him off screens and pindowns)
.

[SouBeachTalents]

I'll take Isiah's real-time thoughts in the moment when it was all happening, than a revised opinion 30 years later that aligns with his career objectives and "brand" (corporate shill)

Regarding the 55 wins.... Notice how the best teams of this era - Spurs/Warriors - they play 55-caliber-style ball without Duncan and KD.. It's almost like to achieve a rare goat-level dynasty, you must achieve a great brand of basketball and teamwork, regardless of talent level.. You think goat-level dynasties are just based on talent and play shit brands that can't compete without their star?.. They wouldn't be goat dynasties if that's the brand they played, and would lose championships instead of winning them.. You have to play great basketball to 3-peat or be anywhere near that level and the Bulls learned how to play that quality of basketball.

Now it's a testament to MJ's supremely goat skill that he could fit a goat PER/production/stats into that level of quality teamwork.. And that's the knock on Lebron - his ball-dominance prevents him from fitting goat stats into a great brand of teamwork and basketball.. MJ succeeded in doing so, and infact is the only guy to win titles as scoring champ - most guys win scoring titles during their "hot dog" years where they go all out, and then have to tone it down to actually win rings.. but MJ was the only guy whose game was naturally optimal enough to hot dog it to a scoring title every year and win the title with goat teamwork too.

So Lebron's ball-dominance doesn't fit in with great ball movement to allow a goat brand or goat dynasty, and he's also an overrated carry-job guy of weaker teams.. His 07' Finals run was accomplished during a decade when 4 other weak casts also made the Finals (09' Dwight, Kidd twice and 01' AI) - so he should get knocked more for ceding the easy run to Dwight in 09' and not commanding sufficient double-teams to free up teammates and win that series as the significant favorite that he was.. His conference didn't require a strong cast to make the Finals, but he couldn't make it in 09/10 and stacked the deck thereafter to ensure Finals run.. So he's a weasel..

Heck, MJ beat a better team in 89' (#1 SRS Cavs) than Lebron lost to in 09' and with a weaker cast (6 seed underdog instead of 1 seed favorite..and 09' (09' Mo > 89' Pippen).. That's how we know MJ would've won easily as in 09' as the massive favorite the Cavs were - he beat a better team with a worse cast in 89'!.. And he wouldn't have been exploited by a no-double-team strategy like Lebron did, so that would've freed up teammates more, plus SVG has to deal with the off-ball aspect of defending MJ (doubling him off screens and pindowns)

1-9

[egokiller]

Paul George wasn't even half the leader and playmaker Scottie was.

How could he be? PG never had MJ to mold him into that level of player.

[Vino24]

Pete Myers had essentially the same impact as MJ

[eliteballer]

How many stars had a #2 as good as Pippen in the 90's?

[sdot_thadon]

1.) If I say Worthy was All-NBA in 1991 and Pippen wasn't an all-star, you'll argue that Pippen was the better player historically and had the better career.. But the reality is that Worthy averaged 22 ppg on 64% in the 84' Finals (22 years old), and had many series where he averaged 25+ as 1st option over Kareem/Magic (i.e. 26 ppg vs. Bad Boys in 89' Finals.. 88' FMVP).. Pippen could never carry that kind of burden or reach Finals MVP-level like Worthy did.. Worthy started out as better (high school, college, draft) and I'm not sure he was ever worse than Pippen (while being better on many occasions).


2.)

S KEMP 1996 PO: 20.9 ppg.. 10.4 rpg.. 1.5 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 57.0 fg.. [COLOR="Blue"]64.0 ts[/COLOR]
PIPPEN 1996 PO: 16.9 ppg.... 8.5 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 2.6 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 39.0 fg.. 47.3 ts


S KEMP 1996 FINALS: 23.3 ppg.. 10.0 rpg.. 2.2 apg.. 1.3 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 55.1 fg.. [COLOR="Blue"]63.3 ts[/COLOR]
PIPPEN 1996 FINALS: 15.7 ppg.... 8.2 rpg.. 5.3 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.3 bpg.. 34.3 fg.. 42.9 ts


Kemp > 2nd three-peat Pippen... That's why the Bulls wanted to trade Pippen for Kemp in 1995... And if you want to say that Payton was the 2nd option, well 96' Payton > 2nd three-peat Pippen too.. Even Schrempf averaged 16.3 on 44% in the 96' Finals, so he outplayed Pippen's 15.7 on 34% (and Schrempf was the more skilled scorer in general, as many guys were).


3.) You guys brag about Pippen winning 55 games - but KJ routinely led the Suns to 55 wins pre-Barkley, including an upset win over a 60-win, 1-seeded Magic Johnson team in 1990.. KJ averaged 23 and 11 apg in that series - that was standard for him.. Pippen has simply never played or led on that level and his stats aren't as good as KJ's.. Ultimately, the ability of guys like KJ, Worthy and Kemp to be 25+ scorers that can lead (i.e. KJ) or be #1 options in a series over other all-time greats (i.e. Worthy/Kemp) puts them on a different level than Pippen, who is more like a better slashing Draymond - similarly, Draymond would never be a #1 option over any all-time great.. ..


4) Other guys in the 90's that were better 2nd options that Pippen:

Penny (1995 and 1996)
Stockton (every year)
David Robinson (1998)
Drexler (1995 and 1996)

And so many guys were better offensive players than Pippen that it's hard to really guage, especially if they didn't take away from a great defense and/or were on great defensive teams.. Guys like Tim Hardaway and Sam Cassell were better offensive players and have been on various good defensive teams - they were "dogs" and were good for defensive culture and competitiveness.. Brad Daughtery was a far better offensive player and was a solid defender that played on good defensive teams.. A guy like Dumars was also a better offensive player and comparable defender... and MANY MORE GUYS were better offensive players and don't hinder defense/on good defensive teams.. too many to list..

smokin good dope I see.

Payton and Kemp were 2 2nd option level guys that were basically both Pippen level, that year at least cant say much for the other years. Scottie had more Mvp votes in 96 than Payton and Kemp combined...

Stockton? ooook.

At least Penny is a decent argument I'll give you that one. Even if it's a whole 2 year comparison.

Mj never played Robinson in a game that mattered.

And as a Houstonian I Iove Clyde but he wasn't better than Scottie at that point of his career.

The rest aren't even worth mentioning, I'm seriously doubting you are a 90s fan at this point.....

[Smoke117]

You guys really need to stop humoring this mans deep mental illness. We are in year 5 of him obsessing like this all day on this board. It was amusing the first two years or so, but it's become absolutely pitiable for a long time now. This man clearly needs some kind of deep mental therapeutic help in his life and we need to stop making light of his condition.

[3ball]

smokin good dope I see.

Payton and Kemp were 2 2nd option level guys that were basically both Pippen level, that year at least cant say much for the other years. Scottie had more Mvp votes in 96 than Payton and Kemp combined...

Stockton? ooook.

At least Penny is a decent argument I'll give you that one. Even if it's a whole 2 year comparison.

Mj never played Robinson in a game that mattered.

And as a Houstonian I Iove Clyde but he wasn't better than Scottie at that point of his career.

The rest aren't even worth mentioning, I'm seriously doubting you are a 90s fan at this point.....

So you agree with Payton/Kemp, Robinson, and Penny

That's most of the guys I named.. and Drexler never played as horribly as 2nd three-peat Pippen

Regarding the others - ur a dumb robot that can't process nuance, so i don't expect you to think a short white guy could be as good as anyone that won 6 rings.. or any of the other guys and rationale that i mentioned...

I should type my responses to you in binary code so you can understand .. 00011110011100000111001010100001111.. you don't know basketball and obviously never picked up a ball in your life
.

[Vino24]

Pete Myers had a bigger defensive impact than MJ

[SouBeachTalents]

So you agree with Payton/Kemp, Robinson, and Penny

That's most of the guys I named.. and Drexler never played as horribly as 2nd three-peat Pippen

Regarding the others - ur a dumb robot that can't process nuance, so i don't expect you to think a short white guy could be as good as anyone that won 6 rings.. or any of the other guys and rationale that i mentioned...

I should type my responses to you in binary code so you can understand .. 00011110011100000111001010100001111

You HAVE to be trolling, There's not a poster on this site that uses less nuance and context than you

[3ball]

You HAVE to be trolling, There's not a poster on this site that uses less nuance and context than you

You guys just can't accept that MJ won 6 rings in the 2-star format we have now - why is this obvious fact so hard fpr you guys to admit???...


And btw, no one backs up theor posts with evidence like i do

No one

You should read one sometime and see

Instead, you skim my posts, miss everything, and then say i don't use nuance..

my posts are legitimate attempts at basketball discussion and I mostly get troll responses, or purely biased, nut-hugging shit (sdot), or shit that shows the person has no understanding of the game (sdot)

[Vino24]

No one backs up theor posts with evidence like i do

No one

You should read one sometime and see

Instead, you skim my posts, miss everything, and then say i don't use nuance..

my posts are legitimate attempts at basketball discussion and I mostly get troll responses, or purely biased, nut-hugging shit (sdot), or shit that shows the person has no understanding of the game (sdot)

You have been caught fudging data (as if MJ needed even mode help)

[3ball]

You have been caught fudging data (as if MJ needed even mode help)

You mean saying Pippen averaged 17 on 40.8% in the 96-98' playoffs instead of 17.6??

Is that what ur talking about??? Other than negligible discrepancies like that (which don't change the point being made), my posts are 100% accurate

The other day, I showed how Lebron's 07' Finals was worse at every stat than MJ's series, but I mistyped Lebron's ortg - so he trailed MJ by 15 points instead of "only" 10... This minor typo (that didn't change the point being made) was harped on and the thread derailed - I was accused of posting inaccurate numbers, which is bs, obviously

^^^ is THIS the kind of "fudging" you're talking about? Because I don't fudge numbers - I don't need to because mj's numbers are already goat

You guys just can't accept that MJ won 6 rings in the 2-star format we have now - why is this obvious fact so hard fpr you guys to admit???...

[3ball]

You mean saying Pippen averaged 17 on 40.8% in the 96-98' playoffs instead of 17.6??

Is that what ur talking about??? Other than negligible discrepancies like that (which don't change the point being made), my posts are 100% accurate

The other day, I showed how Lebron's 07' Finals was worse at every stat than MJ's series, but I mistyped Lebron's ortg - so he trailed MJ by 15 points instead of "only" 10... This minor typo (that didn't change the point being made) was harped on and the thread derailed - I was accused of posting inaccurate numbers, which is bs, obviously

^^^ is THIS the kind of "fudging" you're talking about? Because I don't fudge numbers - I don't need to because mj's numbers are already goat

[COLOR="DarkRed"]You guys just can't accept that MJ 3-peated in the 2-star format we have now - why is this obvious fact so hard for you guys to admit???... [/COLOR]

Anyone???

Are you saying MJ didn't 3-peat in a 2-star format? (he did)

Are you saying today's game isn't a 2-star format?? (it is)

[SouBeachTalents]

You mean saying Pippen averaged 17 on 40.8% in the 96-98' playoffs instead of 17.6??

Is that what ur talking about??? Other than negligible discrepancies like that (which don't change the point being made), my posts are 100% accurate

The other day, I showed how Lebron's 07' Finals was worse at every stat than MJ's series, but I mistyped Lebron's ortg - so he trailed MJ by 15 points instead of "only" 10... This minor typo (that didn't change the point being made) was harped on and the thread derailed - I was accused of posting inaccurate numbers, which is bs, obviously

^^^ is THIS the kind of "fudging" you're talking about? Because I don't fudge numbers - I don't need to because mj's numbers are already goat

You guys just can't accept that MJ won 6 rings in the 2-star format we have now - why is this obvious fact so hard fpr you guys to admit???...

And you just can't admit that Jordan had the superior 2nd star in nearly every series he won