How would you rank John Havlicek?

[BoutPractice]

Obviously the talk of the day will be MIA-IND game 6, but I just stumbled upon videos that reminded me of how truly unique a player John Havlicek was.

He's not talked about as much as other legends from his era, but his career is very interesting because of how it reflects on the usual arguments used to rank players.

Some things in particular that make him an anomaly:

- He's got 8 championship rings. That is a ridiculous number in and of itself. But he wasn't a Horry type of player in those championships, far from it.

In the first championships he was a star masquerading as a sixth man ala Ginobili. Then, he actually won two more championships without Russell, a fact that isn't stressed often enough. In the 1974 championship he averaged 27, 6.5 and 6 on 48% shooting and won Finals MVP, at age 33. His career playoff averages: 22, 7 and 5. In his best statistical regular season, he averaged 29, 9 and 7.5. Of course you can bring up the pace, but whatever the pace is you don't get LeBron stats if you're just a complementary player.

He was an elite star, an all-around player who could also function as the first scoring option, a first class defender, clutch as hell, almost never missed a game... and also won 8 championships.

- He's a living counter-argument to weak era claims. Havlicek started his career in 1962, while Bob Pettit (who'd played against George Mikan!) was still playing. But you also can see him score 29 in his last game in the NBA 1978... He averaged 18, 5 and 5 at 36 years old in Julius Erving's rookie year in the league. Moses Malone, David Thompson, Robert Parish, Alex English, Adrian Dantley, Jack Sikma, Bernard King, and of course Kareem... those are some of the names of the people in the NBA at the time John Havlicek was still playing. His retirement was only six years removed from Jordan's arrival in the league.

In light of those facts, how would you rank him? And what do the arguments you would use in ranking him say about the way you rank other players?

[Lebron23]

I think he's a top 15-20 player of all time. Havlicek was also a very consistent player through his NBA Career.

[Akrazotile]

I wouldn't rank him, because I have little familiarity with him, and I won't pretend to know more about him than I actually do.

[Audio One]

Outside of Jordan, you won't find another complete perimeter player, that played both ends of the floor at an elite level like Hondo (maybe Bean, maybe). He has the rings, stats, accolades, and longevity, I don't see how he isn't a top-10 player all-time.

Some will bring up the fact that he didn't win an MVP, but go look back at his career. During damn near his entire career, if you weren't a big man, you weren't winning the award, plain and simple

[Pushxx]

Top 15-20. He's one of my favorite players and easily the most under-appreciated player ever.

Havlicek had endless effort and hustle. I'm talking running back on every basket. Him and Danny Ainge stick out to me for that.

[bizil]

Outside of Jordan, you won't find another complete perimeter player, that played both ends of the floor at an elite level like Hondo (maybe Bean, maybe). He has the rings, stats, accolades, and longevity, I don't see how he isn't a top-10 player all-time.

Some will bring up the fact that he didn't win an MVP, but go look back at his career. During damn near his entire career, if you weren't a big man, you weren't winning the award, plain and simple

Right on the money about Hondo. I think he was really the first guy who could play PG, SG, and SF at an elite level and a great defender. I know Big O easily has a case, but I don't think he was a great defender like Hondo. MJ, Kobe, Pippen, Lebron, and Grant Hill are the guys after Hondo who were that kind of all around versatile threat. At one point, Hondo was the GOAT SF, and still in the top 4.

[senelcoolidge]

Like so many other great players he's overlooked. A truly all time great.

[pudman13]

The most amazing thing about him was his absolute inability to get tired on the floor. There's a reason he had so many late game heroics: he outlasted everyone else and outhustled everyone else. I wish more of his games still existed on video, because he's an absolute clinic for how to play the game right on both ends of the floor.

Little known piece of trivia: his first NBA basket was a two-handed dunk.

[iamgine]

Obviously the talk of the day will be MIA-IND game 6, but I just stumbled upon videos that reminded me of how truly unique a player John Havlicek was.

He's not talked about as much as other legends from his era, but his career is very interesting because of how it reflects on the usual arguments used to rank players.

Some things in particular that make him an anomaly:

- He's got 8 championship rings. That is a ridiculous number in and of itself. But he wasn't a Horry type of player in those championships, far from it.

In the first championships he was a star masquerading as a sixth man ala Ginobili. Then, he actually won two more championships without Russell, a fact that isn't stressed often enough. In the 1974 championship he averaged 27, 6.5 and 6 on 48% shooting and won Finals MVP, at age 33. His career playoff averages: 22, 7 and 5. In his best statistical regular season, he averaged 29, 9 and 7.5. Of course you can bring up the pace, but whatever the pace is you don't get LeBron stats if you're just a complementary player.

He was an elite star, an all-around player who could also function as the first scoring option, a first class defender, clutch as hell, almost never missed a game... and also won 8 championships.

- He's a living counter-argument to weak era claims. Havlicek started his career in 1962, while Bob Pettit (who'd played against George Mikan!) was still playing. But you also can see him score 29 in his last game in the NBA 1978... He averaged 18, 5 and 5 at 36 years old in Julius Erving's rookie year in the league. Moses Malone, David Thompson, Robert Parish, Alex English, Adrian Dantley, Jack Sikma, Bernard King, and of course Kareem... those are some of the names of the people in the NBA at the time John Havlicek was still playing. His retirement was only six years removed from Jordan's arrival in the league.

In light of those facts, how would you rank him? And what do the arguments you would use in ranking him say about the way you rank other players?

I see him exactly like Tony Parker. An elite player but not the best player in their own team. He was playing with Bill Russell and then later Dave Cowens, who were both better than Havlicek.

[NumberSix]

Is Havlicek the player with the most rings that also has a FMVP? I've never actually thought about it.

[fpliii]

I think he was better defensively than he was offensively.

[oarabbus]

Is Havlicek the player with the most rings that also has a FMVP? I've never actually thought about it.

According to Wiki, only his Celtic buddies have as many or more rings as him and none have an FMVP, so yes, he is the winningest player (in terms of rings) to have an FMVP

[pudman13]

That's kind of a trick question because FMVP wasn't even awarded until 1969. Surely Russell would have had some, and maybe Sam Jones would have too.

[NumberSix]

That's kind of a trick question because FMVP wasn't even awarded until 1969. Surely Russell would have had some, and maybe Sam Jones would have too.

Russell would have a minimum of 5 FMVPs. Maybe even as high as 8.

[oarabbus]

Russell would have a minimum of 5 FMVPs. Maybe even as high as 8.

Russell > Jordan confirmed?