Dirk or Kobe, All Time?

[Round Mound]

Dirk was more of a Missmatch than Kobe and a Better Scorer and Shooter. Yes, A Better Scorer and Shooter (FG% Wise and FGAttempts Taken Per Game At A More More Efficient Level Awell As FT%). Kobe was Better Defensively Relative to Position and a Much Better Passer Aswell. Rebouding Wise? Equal. Both Top 20-25 Players of All Time.

[NBAGOAT]

Lol at '06 and '09-'10 just given to Kobe... also, think about not rewarding Dirk 14-16, when those years, particularly 14, was at Kobe 2000 level.

^NBAGoat when did I ever make the boxscore argument dafuq? All you need to do is read my very first post in this thread. Ive said all anyone needs to know about Dirk before. His impact is in the details.

Actually, by the time the 2012 playoffs kicked around, Id probably have much rather taken Dirk to lead my team than Kobe, too... Kobe bricked the shit out of those OKC 4th quarters.

true, i guess i paid more attenton to the responses. I'll cite a post from colts 18 on realGM which is the best case i've seen for Dirk being top tier on offense.

I'm not sure how you can say Dirk is not portable considering he has had high offensive value from 01-12 and did it on different kinds of teams. He had the greatest offense in history with Nash and a high usage player like Finley. He did great as a 1 man team in 2011. He was pretty good with a balanced lineup in 06-07. He was solid in 01 before Nash emerged with a 2nd scoring option like Finley. I posted this before but I'm going to repost it:

2001: 53 wins, 4th in O rating
-11.3 off, +20.1 plus/minus
109.4 O rating on court, 99.9 off, +9.5

2002- 57 wins, 1st in O rating
-3.0 off, +10.3 plus/minus
114.6 O Rating on court, 105.1 off, +9.5

2003-60 wins, 1st in O rating
Dirk: -8.8 off court, +21.7 Plus/minus
113.7 O rating on, 99.4 off, +14.3

2004- 52 wins, 1st in O rating: Rated the #1 offense of all-time by O rating
-2.0 off court, +9.2 plus/minus
113.9 O rating on, 106.8 off, +7.1

2005- 58 wins, 4th in O rating
DIrk: -6 off court, +15.3
112.1 O rating on court, 102 off, +12.1 in offense

2006- 60 wins, 1st in O rating
Dirk: -0.6 off court, +8.5
115.4 O rating on court, 104.5 off, +10.9

2007-67 wins, 2nd in O rating
Dirk: -1.6 off court, +12.4
116.6 O rating on court, 101.9 off, +14.7
Very much a deserved MVP


2008- 51 wins, 8th in O rating
Dirk: -4.4 off court, +12.7
115.6 O rating on court, 104 off, +11.6

2009- 50 wins, 5th in O rating
Dirk: -4.2 off court, +8
112.9 O rating on court, 106.3 off, +6.6

2010- 55 wins, 10th in O rating
Dirk: -6.2 off court, +11.7
111.6 O rating on court, 106.1 off, +5.5

2011- 57 wins, 8th in O rating
Dirk: -6.1 off court, +16.3
114.4 O rating on court, 104.3 off, +10.1

So here are Dirk's averages
56.4 wins, 4.1 in O rating (4 #1 finishes, 8 top 5, 11/11 in top 10)
-5.1 Off court, +13.9 +/- (He's +14.1 if you include 2012 into this)
113.3 O rating on court, 102.3 off, +11 on offense

That's right, in every single season plus minus is available, Dirk's team has been a negative when he was off the court. He won 50+ games in every single one of those seasons, yet every single season they sucked without him especially on offense. That +11 on offense puts him up there with MJ and Nash as the GOAT of offense.

Here is what Dirk/Nash did +/- from 01-04 when they were on the same team:
01:
Dirk: +20.1 (+9.5 offense)
Nash: +5.9 (+6.5 offense)

02:
Dirk: +10.3 (+9.5 offense)
Nash: +3.7 (+2.6 offense)

03:
Dirk +21.7 (+14.2 offense)
Nash: +10.7 (+7.4 offense)

04:
Dirk: +9.2 (+7.1 offense)
Nash: +6.8 (+6.5 offense)

So every year Dirk was significantly better even on offense. I'm 100% confident that Dirk is more portable offensively than Nash is. Dirk has dominated with a great PG, good 2nd option perimeter wise, as the man, or on a balanced offense. Arguably a top 5 offensive player ever.

Here are some offensive plus/minus numbers from 01-04 with Dirk and Steve Nash on the same team.

Overall Mavs: 110.6 O rating, .544 TS%

With Dirk: 112.8 O rating, .556 TS%
W/O Dirk: 103.2 O rating, .506 TS%
Difference: +9.6 O rating, +5.0 TS%

With Nash: 112.3 O rating, .555 TS%
W/O Nash: 106.9 O rating, .521 TS%
Difference: +5.4 O rating, +3.4 TS%

With Dirk, no Nash: 109.8 O rating, .533 TS%
With Nash, no Dirk: 104.3 O rating, .512 TS%

With Dirk/Nash on court: 114.0 O rating, .564 TS% (the LA at that time was around 103.5 so thats +10.5 :o )
With no Nash/Dirk: 102.0 O rating, .500 TS%

With Nash/Finley/Dirk: 113.9 O rating, .563 TS%
With Nash/Finley, No Dirk: 104.6 O rating, .510 TS%
Diff: +9.3 O rating, +5.3 TS%


On this board, Nash gets acknowledged as the greatest offensive player ever, yet Dirk was clearly the offensive catalyst when they played together. Dirk ran the show on arguably the greatest offenses in history. Then Nash improved when a team was clearly built around him. Dirk could have that success if he had that kind of offensive talent and a system built around him. Dirk was a superstar with Nash, a superstar with Finley, a superstar with scrubs like 11-12, a superstar with avg role players like Stackhouse/Terry/Howard, etc.

[Bigsmoke]

Dirk got his ass handed to him by an 8th seed

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...mavericks.html

[Bigsmoke]

I'm not a Kobe fan by any means but did someone tried to claim that Dirk was a better than than him in 2006

[ArbitraryWater]

true, i guess i paid more attenton to the responses. I'll cite a post from colts 18 on realGM which is the best case i've seen for Dirk being top tier on offense.

great stuff!

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk better peak (2011 playoff run) and also has an argument for better longevity.

Similar accolades. Both have 1 MVP. Dirk would at least have 5 rings too if he played with peak Shaq so I'm not using the ring argument against him. He peaked higher than Kobe anyway.

Rolling with Dirk on this one... which effectively knocks Kobe out of the top 12.

pretty much... imagine Shaq and Dirk together? Yikes.. 5 rings alone right there. GOAT Mismatch team.