Lebron james: Im chasing Jordan

[andgar923]

Stop with the numbers and accolades. Stop denigrating teammates. Those are all sidebar issues. If Lebron was better than MJ, it wouldn't take 20 years for it to be obvious. The real question is... will LBJ have a better career? Y'all get the two confused.

Maybe, possibly by some metric LBJ can have a better career by the time he retires if longevity and accumulated stats is your thing but no he won't ever be a better player. We've already seen LBJ's best and he wasn't better then so how can he get better now on the downside of his career?

'But stats!

[plowking]

all four of those seasons were included in your little analysis.. the better question is why'd you take only pippens three best statistical years and compare them to all of Wade's ..? why are you including wade's not so great seasons, but not pippens as well? do you see how that is contradictory and misleading?

i hope so...

I included Pippen's stats for the period they won 6 finals. That is more seasons than what I included for Wade.
I included all of the seasons they competed for titles.

[plowking]

Stop with the numbers and accolades. Stop denigrating teammates. Those are all sidebar issues. If Lebron was better than MJ, it wouldn't take 20 years for it to be obvious. The real question is... will LBJ have a better career? Y'all get the two confused.

Maybe, possibly by some metric LBJ can have a better career by the time he retires if longevity and accumulated stats is your thing but no he won't ever be a better player. We've already seen LBJ's best and he wasn't better then so how can he get better now on the downside of his career?

He was just as good and arguably better.

We simply live in a society now that says "wait and see", and "he doesn't have enough rings". Take Barkley for example saying "we have never seen anyone like LeBron James. He does things on the court that have never been done". Pippen said Bron was the best too. Larry said he might be the best there will ever be.

Bron is bigger, stronger, faster, a better rebonder, better passer and a more versatile and better defender. You can easily argue either way who the better player at their peak was.

[bdreason]

LeBron should focus on chasing Magic, Bird, Russell, Shaq, Duncan, and Kareem before he worries about MJ.

[Dray n Klay]

http://tinyurl.com/zmy7zhw


Interesting article about Michael Jordan written in 1993. It describes his racking up of gambling debts while on the golf course.

Apparently MJ crossed a convicted cocaine dealer called Slim Bouler and lost $57,000 to him over some bets, and he mentioned he overheard MJ mentioning point spreads over the phone.


The article also mentions how James R. Jordan (Michael's Father) plays into this.








"The surest and most vicious way to hurt Michael Jordan was always to hurt James Jordan.

James was Michael, without the disrespect for gravity. He was just as bald, charming, cocky, and effortlessly glib. He was not just Michael's dad but his best friend and business partner. He appeared with Michael in a likably naughty Hanes underwear commercial."

[Da_Realist]

He was just as good and arguably better.

We simply live in a society now that says "wait and see", and "he doesn't have enough rings". Take Barkley for example saying "we have never seen anyone like LeBron James. He does things on the court that have never been done". Pippen said Bron was the best too. Larry said he might be the best there will ever be.

Bron is bigger, stronger, faster, a better rebonder, better passer and a more versatile and better defender. You can easily argue either way who the better player at their peak was.

LOL

[fourkicks44]

He was just as good and arguably better.

We simply live in a society now that says "wait and see", and "he doesn't have enough rings". Take Barkley for example saying "we have never seen anyone like LeBron James. He does things on the court that have never been done". Pippen said Bron was the best too. Larry said he might be the best there will ever be.

Bron is bigger, stronger, faster, a better rebonder, better passer and a more versatile and better defender. You can easily argue either way who the better player at their peak was.

Dunno about all that...

'Arguably better'?

[Mr Feeny]

He was just as good and arguably better.

We simply live in a society now that says "wait and see", and "he doesn't have enough rings". Take Barkley for example saying "we have never seen anyone like LeBron James. He does things on the court that have never been done". Pippen said Bron was the best too. Larry said he might be the best there will ever be.

Bron is bigger, stronger, faster, a better rebonder, better passer and a more versatile and better defender. You can easily argue either way who the better player at their peak was.

I think peak for peak they were neck and neck but Lebron was just a tad behind in terms of PER and ws/48. Lebron's advantage will come in terms of cumulative totals such as VORP, WS, total playoff points, total playoff assists, total DPM etc.

[Mr Feeny]

LeBron should focus on chasing Magic, Bird, Russell, Shaq, Duncan, and Kareem before he worries about MJ.

He's ahead of everyone there and is in a virtually dead heat with kareem for 2nd spot behind Jordan. He'll have a good chance of making an iron clad case for 2nd greatest all time within a couple of seasons.

[plowking]

LOL

Raw stats, advanced stats and now results support it. Even the eye test shows us he is a level above his peers.

He has been the best player in the league since he was 24. He is now 31.

You're response is what it is because you don't like the idea of it. Realistically though everything apart from your biased opinion tells us they are equals at the very worst.

[Mr Feeny]

Raw stats, advanced stats and now results support it. Even the eye test shows us he is a level above his peers.

He has been the best player in the league since he was 24. He is now 31.

You're response is what it is because you don't like the idea of it. Realistically though everything apart from your biased opinion tells us they are equals at the very worst.

That's the thing. Advanced stats don't really support it.
It will come down to peak vs career.
Lebron can make his case for a better overall career. He will end up with more points , rebounds and assists in the regular season, playoffs, and finals.
His cumulative stats will be better and he's already the all time leader in VORP and win shares which he'll extend. He'll end up with the highest DPM of all time.
He can't ever catch Jordan's PER or ws/48 in the regular season or the playoffs because he's still below him and will only decline from now on.

Having said that, were lebron to still stay healthy and play elite basketball for the next 3 year, he could end up with 35 k points, 9 k rebounds, 9 k assists by the time he's done. He could coast the rest of the way and get those numbers easily.

[GimmeThat]

like how David Stern changes the rule to improve league scoring.

now would be a good time to get my lawyer

[plowking]

That's the thing. Advanced stats don't really support it.
It will come down to peak vs career.

LeBron is at 27.7 PER for his career, and Jordan at 27.9 PER.
Both of their two highest seasons are at 31.7 and 31.6 PER.
Both have 4 seasons above 30 PER.
Bron has 4 playoff runs above 30 PER of at least 10 games, Jordan has 3.
Jordan has a 28.1 PER in his 6 finals runs, Bron has a 28.0 PER in his last 6.

Their numbers are similar all over in terms of PER. Jordan has slight edges in win shares, where as Bron is better in Box score +/- and VORP (even averages, not just total).

Lebron can make his case for a better overall career. He will end up with more points , rebounds and assists in the regular season, playoffs, and finals.
His cumulative stats will be better and he's already the all time leader in VORP and win shares which he'll extend. He'll end up with the highest DPM of all time.
He can't ever catch Jordan's PER or ws/48 in the regular season or the playoffs because he's still below him and will only decline from now on.

Well he did just put up a 30 PER in the playoffs, but generally he will decline in terms of those numbers simply because he has already played more playoff games. At the same time, Bron was leading his team to the finals at 22, when he realistically shouldn't have been close. Of course this negatively impacted his PER. Regardless, they are still close.

Having said that, were lebron to still stay healthy and play elite basketball for the next 3 year, he could end up with 35 k points, 9 k rebounds, 9 k assists by the time he's done. He could coast the rest of the way and get those numbers easily.

LeBron won't ever have the averages that Jordan will because he simply will play far more basketball than Jordan.
The point is, right now, there averages are comparable and almost identical impact wise, and this is right now when they have both played just about the same number of games.

[Mr Feeny]

LeBron is at 27.7 PER for his career, and Jordan at 27.9 PER.
Both of their two highest seasons are at 31.7 and 31.6 PER.
Both have 4 seasons above 30 PER.
Bron has 4 playoff runs above 30 PER of at least 10 games, Jordan has 3.
Jordan has a 28.1 PER in his 6 finals runs, Bron has a 28.0 PER in his last 6.

Their numbers are similar all over in terms of PER. Jordan has slight edges in win shares, where as Bron is better in Box score +/- and VORP (even averages, not just total).



Well he did just put up a 30 PER in the playoffs, but generally he will decline in terms of those numbers simply because he has already played more playoff games. At the same time, Bron was leading his team to the finals at 22, when he realistically shouldn't have been close. Of course this negatively impacted his PER. Regardless, they are still close.



LeBron won't ever have the averages that Jordan will because he simply will play far more basketball than Jordan.
The point is, right now, there averages are comparable and almost identical impact wise, and this is right now when they have both played just about the same number of games.

Agree that they're not far off. Statistically speaking, Lebron james is the 2nd best player ever. But the difference - no matter how marginal - is relevant if the comparison is being made with the one guy who's ahead of him (if only marginally).

Lebron is not far behind in PER or ws/48 but he's still behind, which is the point if we're comparing peaks.
As far as saying that Lebron's averages won't be as good because he will play longer, I'd say that he's already behind now after 13 seasons of basketball. If Lebron were to stop playing NOW at the age of 31 before his decline (unlike Mike who played from 32-35 & 39-40), he'd still be behind.

This isn't an indictment of James. Like you said, he leads box score metrics and VORP. His cumulative stats will trump not only Jordan's but probably everybody else who's ever played.
At his peak, he is only SLIGHTLY behind the consensus GOAT while having better cumulative totals. That's more than praise worthy.

I'm just not sure there's a need to go a step too far and say he has a clear lead in advanced stats when he peaked a bit lower. Either way, we're talking about the guy who could go on to be GOAT or at worst 2nd place.

[andgar923]

*sigh* you guys just don't get it or refuse to grasp.

On paper, Bron appears to be on par with MJ. But he's nowhere near him when it comes to skills.

Not only that but Bron's stats don't hold the same value as MJ's.

Bron has never faced the same amount of double and triple team coverage as MJ.

He's never been played as physical with the same amount of consistency as MJ.

Shit, the defensive coverage Bron receives would be a cakewalk for MJ.

Bron is a great player but he falls short when one looks at the game and not the stats sheet and highlight clips.