Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq, and here are the numbers to PROVE it

[20 Dimes A Game]

Duncan will never ever have the level of complete domination Shaq had and how much fear prime Shaq puts in big men.

[sbw19]

[COLOR=Gray]Tim Duncan beat the Lakers enroute to 2 titles, Shaq beat Spurs enroute to 2 titles. Where is this so called dominance?[/COLOR]

[COLOR=Teal]In practically every game Shaq has played while healthy before his decline, and even in many games after it. There's a clear difference between Shaq dominated, and his team winning titles. Same goes with Duncan, and all other great players. Shaq just did it better and for a longer time than any basketball great not named Jordan, Magic or Bird in the last 25 years, and that includes Hakeem and Duncan.

Btw, let me know when a Duncan-led team actually achieves a threepeat since you believe winning titles is the be-all, end-all sign of a player's dominance. [/COLOR]

[poeticism707]

[COLOR=Teal]In practically every game Shaq has played while healthy before his decline, and even in many games after it. There's a clear difference between Shaq dominated, and his team winning titles. Same goes with Duncan, and all other great players. Shaq just did it better and for a longer time than any basketball great not named Jordan, Magic or Bird in the last 25 years, and that includes Hakeem and Duncan.

Btw, let me know when a Duncan-led team actually achieves a threepeat since you believe winning titles is the be-all, end-all sign of a player's dominance. [/COLOR]

These are very solid points. However, the last time I checked, 1+1+1=3, whether it is consecutive or no.

[dhenk]

On the day Shaq came into the nba,I hated him...I hated the hype and the attitude...
Now,when I look back over the last decade....
he is truely -imo- the best and most dominating center in the last 20 years...
and maybe because I

[poeticism707]

Here is a system that NBA_Analyst (And ISH poster) has been working on for 2 years, and Here he compares Shaq and Tim Duncan.

Here is the system:

This system tells which of the 2 players is better TODAay... So name 2 players and I'll tell you who is better... Based on numerous amounts of things...From individual performance, to winning...System is purely Objective.....By the way, I love to get reviews!...And don't worry, it doesn't have too many errors or faults in it, I have been working on it for 2 years...It is at its finest...
(Tells which 2 players are better today, so no use of previous stats)

(YOU CAN DO HISTORIC Players as well...But be aware that the system is less accurate on historic players, but still is accurate...Historic Matchups take MUCH longer...You probably will receive results of those matchups the next day...So there is a limit from me on historic matchups...)

But lets start out, no historic players yet...

This system is broken to 4 parts

Individual Score- All stats only on player based on this year...

Team Impact Score- All stats on player impacting team based on this year...

Winning Score- How good the player has been at winning in his career, so rings, and everything... Needed, cuz rings count...

Award Score- How many awards has the player gotten in career, it doesn't factor in that as much as others... Reduced for players out of prime
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READ MORE FOR
DETAILS:

Here are all the factors again (per game)

Individual Factor

1.Scoring Score- combines, points, points per 48, and non assisted shot %

2.Rebounding Score- Combines rebounds, reb per 48, and a reb rate,

3.Assist Score- assist, assist per 48, and assist rate

4.Steal Score- steals, and steal per 48

5.Block Score- blocks, and blocks per 48

6.TO score- TOs, TOs per 48, and TO/Ast Ratio

7.3pt Score- Combines 3pt%, 3pt M, 3pt A

8.FT Score- FT % and FT M

9.FG Score- FG%, FG M, FG A, eFG%, TS%

10.PER

11.EFF

12.Defensive Counterpart PER

13.Defensive Award addition: Defensive awards total *2(Extra on defense cuz, this is one of the only places where you can measure defense in numbers)

13.Clutch- counts eFG%, wins, and points in clutch

TEAM Impact

Team Impact is the least complex...It just measures, how you well you fit into your team, and how well you and your team plays...

It uses team success, with you on and off the court...As well as how your team does period WITH you on the court

Great, because, Players need to fit in the team too, and not just take stats

WINNING

Age doesn't matter. How can age not matter when talking about awards and titles, u'll see.
I broke it down to Total titles and awards, and % titles and awards. The totals support the older players, and the % support the young ones.
Percentages work like this, if a player has won 3 titles in 10 years, then he has 30%, if a player has won 1 titles in 3 years, then 33%, and so on. You will understand more as we get the totals.


TOTALS
Titles +5
CHOOSE 1
Role Titles(R.Horry) +6
Lead Titles (B.Wallace or M.Ginobili) +10
Finals MVPs +15

Lead to Finals but lost +6
Playoff Apps +2
Led team to 50+ wins (seasons) +3
Led team to 60+ wins (seasons) +5
TOTAL:


PERCENTAGES
ROUND TO NEAREST WHOLE NUMBER
Titles + %/6
R Titles + %/4
L Titles + %/1
Finals MVP + %/1 (20- # of years played)
Lead to Finals MVP but lost + %/4
Lead to Playoffs + %/10
Lead to 50+ wins + %/8
Lead to 60+ wins + %/5
% Total:Total *1.5

Grand Total:Average % total, and total total, up to get grand total

AWARDS FACTOR

Age doesn't matter. How can age not matter when talking about awards and titles, u'll see.
I broke it down to Total titles and awards, and % titles and awards. The totals support the older players, and the % support the young ones.
Percentages work like this, if a player has won 3 titles in 10 years, then he has 30%, if a player has won 1 titles in 3 years, then 33%, and so on. You will understand more as we get the totals. But I guess it matters some with VERY young players...When the player is very young, the award section won't be added...

All-Star App: +5
MVP: +15
1st Team: +10
2nd Team: +7
3rd Team: +4
DPOY: +8
D 1st team: +6
D 2nd Team: +4
TOTAL:

PERCENTAGES
All-Star + %/5
MVP + %/1 + (20-# of years played)
1st Team + %/1
2nd Team + %/3
3rd Team + %/6
DPOY + %/2
1st D Team + %/4
2nd D Team + %/6
% Total:Total *1.5

Grand Total:Average % total, and total total, up to get grand total, and then divide by 2


ON PLAYERS THAT DON'T PLAY THIS YEAR OR YOU DON'T WANT MEASURED THIS YEAR, AWARDS WILL BE DOUBLED...



NOTE:

Even though the Award and Winning thing does take care of age differences, it doesn't do well on players that very young vs. veterans

like Anthony, Bosh, Howard, etc.

So I recommend taking the Awards especially OFF...Winning, its alrite usually...

But remember, you can still do VERY YOUNG vs. Old...

[poeticism707]

Here are the results from page 15 of the current ISH thread entitled:
Re: ***Super ACCURATE Player System***

[FONT="Palatino Linotype"]

Tim Duncan vs. Shaquille O'Neal

[/FONT]

[FONT="Georgia"]
Scoring Score: O'Neal by 6


Rebounding Score: Duncan by 6


Assist Score: Duncan by 12


Stealing Score: Duncan by 7


Blocking Score: Duncan by 2


TO Score: Duncan by 5


3pt Score: Tie


FT Score: Duncan by 6


Shooting and Scoring Score: O'Neal by 13


Clutch Score: O'Neal by 13


PER: O'Neal by 5


EFF: Duncan by 4


Individual Defense: Duncan by 23




TOTAL TEAM SCORE: Duncan by 5



TOTAL WINNING SCORE: O'Neal by 6



TOTAL AWARDS SCORE: Duncan by 24




Individual Score: Duncan by 41
Team Score: Duncan by 5
Winning Score: O'Neal by 6
Awards Score: Duncan by 24


FINAL SCORE: Duncan by 66


WINNER: Tim Duncan

It wouldn't be redundant, considering the thread, to say I told you so...

[RagingBull33]

Here are the results from page 15 of the current ISH thread entitled:
Re: ***Super ACCURATE Player System***



It wouldn't be redundant, considering the thread, to say I told you so...

That is Duncan vs. Shaq NOW. Not prime vs prime.
Face it dude, Shaq is top 3 in most dominant to ever play the game.

[poeticism707]

That is Duncan vs. Shaq NOW. Not prime vs prime.
Face it dude, Shaq is top 3 in most dominant to ever play the game.

This is a comparison of their total careers to date. I could care less about some mystical, 3 years of someone's "prime."

[poeticism707]

:s

[poeticism707]

:rollingeyes:

[Rameek]

How many great centers did shaq face in his prime? how many great PF's did Duncan face in his prime? I think it would be easier for shaq to dominate IMHO.

[ChrisConley]

One of the reasons Duncan is so good is his teammates. If you replace Garnett with Duncan on Minnesota for the past 10 years, they wouldn't get any more wins. From my limited Duncan watching experience (playoffs last 10 years, big national TV games), it seems to me that he can't do sh!t when he's doubled. He passes off to an excellent 3-pt shooter who knocks down a 3. Or makes a nice pass in the lane to a slasher who is a great finisher. He only dominates with single coverage (and he does dominate). Shaq throws it down with 2 dudes hanging off of him all the time.

[Blue&Orange]

Shaq dominated Mutumbo's face a lot more than Duncan.

[td21spurs]

Yeah, Duncan is greater than Shaq. who did Shaq play with during the 3 peat run? the lakers were packed with veterans that know how to win games. Glen Rice? the laker squad that lifted the lakers up, arguably the key to win the 2000 nba championship. Ron Harper? MJ's second best sidekick 1 of PJ's favorite players from the bulls dynasty. Robert Horry, Hakeem's boy. do i need to tell u that this guy is a killer. Derek Fisher. Rick Fox. Lindsey hunter. these are very reliable players. they can fulfill their roles. not to mention that Shaq had Kobe Bryant, the greatest sidekick of all time.

throughout Shaq's entire career he has been playing with top notch swingmen. Penny Hardaway(a lesser version of Kobe, 1 of the best young players at that time), Kobe bryant, and Dwade who is almost as good as Kobe in terms of skills. Shaq couldn't win a single chip with Penny because he did not have enough help, not enough well experienced players around him. and he couldn't make those players better. unlike when he's with the lakers and the heat, he had tons of veterans in both teams. and they helped him win 4 championships.

Who did Timmy have? a few players with some experiences and new guys. if the spurs didn't get Timmy, do u think that Drob could lead the spurs to the nba title? would Drob win the championship without Timmy? would TP and Manu be as affective as they are now playing with Drob? nah. Tim made them better. period. the spurs wouldn't be a contender team without Tim Duncan. how else would u explain the transformation of the spurs? Tim is the reason why the spurs have become 1 of the most successful franchises in the nba history.

Shaq definitely is 1 of the greatest big men of all time. he led the lakers to championships, the leader of the team. he is great, but sorry he is not better than Tim Duncan.

From my limited Duncan watching experience.

Stfu now?

[poeticism707]

Yeah, Duncan is greater than Shaq. who did Shaq play with during the 3 peat run? the lakers were packed with veterans that know how to win games. Glen Rice? the laker squad that lifted the lakers up, arguably the key to win the 2000 nba championship. Ron Harper? MJ's second best sidekick 1 of PJ's favorite players from the bulls dynasty. Robert Horry, Hakeem's boy. do i need to tell u that this guy is a killer. Derek Fisher. Rick Fox. Lindsey hunter. these are very reliable players. they can fulfill their roles. not to mention that Shaq had Kobe Bryant, the greatest sidekick of all time.

throughout Shaq's entire career he has been playing with top notch swingmen. Penny Hardaway(a lesser version of Kobe, 1 of the best young players at that time), Kobe bryant, and Dwade who is almost as good as Kobe in terms of skills. Shaq couldn't win a single chip with Penny because he did not have enough help, not enough well experienced players around him. and he couldn't make those players better. unlike when he's with the lakers and the heat, he had tons of veterans in both teams. and they helped him win 4 championships.

Who did Timmy have? a few players with some experiences and new guys. if the spurs didn't get Timmy, do u think that Drob could lead the spurs to the nba title? would Drob win the championship without Timmy? would TP and Manu be as affective as they are now playing with Drob? nah. Tim made them better. period. the spurs wouldn't be a contender team without Tim Duncan. how else would u explain the transformation of the spurs? Tim is the reason why the spurs have become 1 of the most successful franchises in the nba history.

Shaq definitely is 1 of the greatest big men of all time. he led the lakers to championships, the leader of the team. he is great, but sorry he is not better than Tim Duncan.



Stfu now?