Wilt Chamberlain- A Los Angeles Dilemma (SI Article from 1969)

[ClipperRevival]

9 teams in NBA history have come back from 3-1 deficits. And Wilt was on the receiving end one of them. Not to mention, beind on the losing end in some of the most iconic wins for other greats like Russell in 1969 (last season and huge underdogs) and Reed in 1970 (the famous injury game). Those are two of the most legendary and well remembered moments in playoff history and again, Wilt is on the wrong end of the stick. It's just a bad look for Wilt and it's not all coincidence. At some point, you have to stop pointing fingers and just take over the game because you have the talent to do so. But in some of these brightest moments, he shrunk. Guys like MJ or Russell wouldn't let it get to that. They would dig deeper because they wanted to win more than you. It's about winning.

[Pointguard]

Check the date on that article (I'll help... it hit the newstands on 1/27/69)...

It was written before 1/27, but hit the newstands on 1/27...

In one of the biggest blunders ever printed...



Just the night before this article hit the newstands...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...901260CIN.html

Fascinating...Chamberlain with a 60 point game.

Oh, and how about this game a couple of weeks later...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...902090LAL.html

Hmmm... a 66 point game.


What kind of a coach was Butch "the Butcher" Van Breda Kolff?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...4&postcount=68



So guess what? In the playoffs, Wilt was basically setting screens for Baylor...who would be the worst shooter on the entire team in the post-season (.385.) Not only that, but in three of the Lakers' Finals losses, by margins of 6,1, and 2 points...Baylor shot 4-18, 2-14, and 8-22 from the field.

Ether.

Thanks for totally shredding that garbage article. Van Breda Kolff would have been brought up on charges for criminally bad coaching. The author of this article was waiting for Wilt to fall off and figured his window of opportunity was small and just let it go.

[ClipperRevival]

Laz,

Do you not realize that when you post these impressive stats of Wilt that you are only confirming what many believe? That he is completely capable of great things but can't duplicate it when it matters most? When you do nothing but deflect, it only makes people hate Wilt more. You have to accept the reality of the situation and admit that he came up short when it mattered in several playoffs and that negatively affects his legacy. And trying to deflect only makes you look like you aren't objective. I have watched every single documentary available on Wilt on Youtube and every single one of them has a segment discussing his losing and why he didn't win more. He is top 4 GOAT in my book but he could've done more.

[LAZERUSS]

The guy was missing that fire in his belly. The stuff Russell, MJ, Kobe, Bird, etc had. That willingness to dig deeper when it mattered most. Wilt was supposed to dominate. Besides Shaq, the league has never seen a true 7 footer with their size, strength and athleticism. He was one of the few humans who could tand next to Shaq and they look about the same in size. He was THAT freaken big. I just can't respect a guy who didn't pout his heart and soul into the game. I can't relate to that type of thinking. That is beta stuff. The mental side of the game is just as important as the skills/athleticism part.

Like MJ going 1-9 before Pippen arrived, right? And in his highest scoring season, he and his Bulls were swept in the first round, and in a series in which he shot .417 from the floor, and went 9-35 in a close=out game? Or QUITTING on his team in a pivotal game five of the playoffs, in a series tied 2-2? Or WINNING a ring in a Finals in which he shot .415 (and winning the clinching game with a 5-19 effort?)

Or Bird taking his Celtics down in flames in SEVEN post-season series with HCA, including being swept in a series in which he averaged 18.7 ppg on a .441 FG%; losing as a favorite against a Piston team that held him to 19.8 ppg on a ...get this... .351 FG%; and WINNING a ring in a series in which he averaged 15 ppg on a .419 FG%.

Or a prime KAJ going to TWO Finals in his first ten seasons (and pre-MAGIC), and only winning ONE. And getting outplayed in a game seven blowout loss on his home floor by Dave Cowens; or taking his heavily-favored Bucks down the toilet against Nate Thurmond's Warriors in the first round, in a series in which he shot .428 (and being held to a .405 series in another series against Thurmond); or losing in the first round against a far inferior Sonics team; or getting his ass handed to him by Moses in a shocking first round playoff loss to a 40-42 team; oir being brutalized by Moses a couple of years later in a sweeping Finals loss" or being outplayed by a 35 year old Wilt in the '72 WCF's, and his one year "dynasty" crumbling; or WINNING a ring in a Finals in which he averaged 13 ppg, 4 rpg, and shot .414...with a game seven of 4 four points, on 2-7 shooting (thank you MAGIC.)

Or your boy Hakeem...the KING of FIRST ROUND EXITS (EIGHT of them,..and most all blowout losses.)

Or Shaq being SWEPT SIX times in the playoffs (and nearly EIGHT.)

Or Kobe consistently puking all over the floor in his seven career Finals.

Or West going 1-9 in his Finals...and getting his ONLY ring...thanks to WILT...in a Finals in which West shot .325 from the floor.

You can right down the list my friend. All of them CHOKERS.

[houston]

cool read

[ClipperRevival]

Like MJ going 1-9 before Pippen arrived, right? And in his highest scoring season, he and his Bulls were swept in the first round, and in a series in which he shot .417 from the floor, and went 9-35 in a close=out game? Or QUITTING on his team in a pivotal game five of the playoffs, in a series tied 2-2? Or WINNING a ring in a Finals in which he shot .415 (and winning the clinching game with a 5-19 effort?)

Or Bird taking his Celtics down in flames in SEVEN post-season series with HCA, including being swept in a series in which he averaged 18.7 ppg on a .441 FG%; losing as a favorite against a Piston team that held him to 19.8 ppg on a ...get this... .351 FG%; and WINNING a ring in a series in which he averaged 15 ppg on a .419 FG%.

Or a prime KAJ going to TWO Finals in his first ten seasons (and pre-MAGIC), and only winning ONE. And getting outplayed in a game seven blowout loss on his home floor by Dave Cowens; or taking his heavily-favored Bucks down the toilet against Nate Thurmond's Warriors in the first round, in a series in which he shot .428 (and being held to a .405 series in another series against Thurmond); or losing in the first round against a far inferior Sonics team; or getting his ass handed to him by Moses in a shocking first round playoff loss to a 40-42 team; oir being brutalized by Moses a couple of years later in a sweeping Finals loss" or being outplayed by a 35 year old Wilt in the '72 WCF's, and his one year "dynasty" crumbling; or WINNING a ring in a Finals in which he averaged 13 ppg, 4 rpg, and shot .414...with a game seven of 4 four points, on 2-7 shooting (thank you MAGIC.)

Or your boy Hakeem...the KING of FIRST ROUND EXITS (EIGHT of them,..and most all blowout losses.)

Or Shaq being SWEPT SIX times in the playoffs (and nearly EIGHT.)

Or Kobe consistently puking all over the floor in his seven career Finals.

Or West going 1-9 in his Finals...and getting his ONLY ring...thanks to WILT...in a Finals in which West shot .325 from the floor.

You can right down the list my friend. All of them CHOKERS.

None of them were in a situation like Wilt in 1968 and 1969. We went through this a million times man. Like I said, if you don't find any fault in this GOAT level talent laying eggs in these close out games, there no point discussing.

Many of the situations you described above are lacking proper context. Like being the far inferior team. That wasn't the case for Wilt.

[LAZERUSS]

9 teams in NBA history have come back from 3-1 deficits. And Wilt was on the receiving end one of them. Not to mention, beind on the losing end in some of the most iconic wins for other greats like Russell in 1969 (last season and huge underdogs) and Reed in 1970 (the famous injury game). Those are two of the most legendary and well remembered moments in playoff history and again, Wilt is on the wrong end of the stick. It's just a bad look for Wilt and it's not all coincidence. At some point, you have to stop pointing fingers and just take over the game because you have the talent to do so. But in some of these brightest moments, he shrunk. Guys like MJ or Russell wouldn't let it get to that. They would dig deeper because they wanted to win more than you. It's about winning.

As long as you keep printing your trash...I will keep destroying it...

Wilt's '68 EDF's...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...1&postcount=14

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...6&postcount=13

He and his injury-DECIMATED Sixers weren't even favored in their FIRST ROUND (in a series in which Wilt led both teams in scoring, rebounding, assists, and FG%... 25-24-7 .584)...and then crushed Russell in the EDF's with a 22-25-7 series...all while playing every minute of every game of that series with the SAME injury that left a helpless Reed a statue in the last three games of the '70 Finals (when Wilt outscored him, 88-11, outrebounded him, 71-3, and outshot him, 39-55 to 4-10.)

As for Russell...Chamberlain BADLY outscored him, BADLY outrebounded him, and BADLY outshot him in their EIGHT post-season H2H's. Included were a 30-31 .555 series in which Chamberlain's 40-40 Sixers lost a game seven to Russell's 62-18 Celtics by ONE point...and his '67 EDF's, when he absolutely slaughtered a helpless Russell, who had watch in horror as Chamberlain and his Sixers destroyed the eight time defending champions.

Chamberlain played in 160 post-season games, and was seldom outplayed by any of his HOF peers.

[Pointguard]

The guy was missing that fire in his belly. The stuff Russell, MJ, Kobe, Bird, etc had. That willingness to dig deeper when it mattered most. Wilt was supposed to dominate. Besides Shaq, the league has never seen a true 7 footer with their size, strength and athleticism. He was one of the few humans who could tand next to Shaq and they look about the same in size. He was THAT freaken big. I just can't respect a guy who didn't pout his heart and soul into the game. I can't relate to that type of thinking. That is beta stuff. The mental side of the game is just as important as the skills/athleticism part.

Centers always were kind of dependent on guards getting them the ball or systemic play and rarely win without great coaching or guards - that's why you didn't mention any offensive centers in your list above. Shaq without great coaching and system play had some great teams in Orlando and LA and only had one year where he really won on his play. The refs were heavily in play in three of those rings. There was nothing Beta about Shaq's game at all. He had the best teammates in his era. You are oversimplifying things way too hard. Its true with the greatest centers Shaq, Wilt and Kareem.

[LAZERUSS]

Laz,

Do you not realize that when you post these impressive stats of Wilt that you are only confirming what many believe? That he is completely capable of great things but can't duplicate it when it matters most? When you do nothing but deflect, it only makes people hate Wilt more. You have to accept the reality of the situation and admit that he came up short when it mattered in several playoffs and that negatively affects his legacy. And trying to deflect only makes you look like you aren't objective. I have watched every single documentary available on Wilt on Youtube and every single one of them has a segment discussing his losing and why he didn't win more. He is top 4 GOAT in my book but he could've done more.

What's your definition of "coming up short?"

In his WORST post-season series, the '69 Finals, in which as you have already read, he was coached by an idiot...he still averaged a 12-25 .500, and in game seven, wiped the floor with Russell (outscoring him, 18-6, outrebounding him, 27-21, and outshooting him, 7-8 to 2-7.)?

Again...Jordan took his 40-42 Bulls down in the first round in his highest scoring season...in a sweeping loss, with a horrific shooting series. Chamberlain dragged a roster, the core of which was the same last place roster he inherited in his rookie season, to a game seven, two point loss against a 60-20 HOF-laden Celtics team that was favored in every game of that series...in his highest scoring season...and did so with a 34-27 series.

Or taking a huge under-dog 40-40 Sixers team to a game seven, one point loss against Boston's greatest team in the Russell era (62-18), and in a series in which he just castrated Russell.

The reality was...Chamberlain was putting up 20-20 post-season runs nearly his entire playoff career, and yet you blame HIM for losing?

Again...I have listed players like Bird, Kobe, MJ, KAJ, Hakeem, and Shaq with their post-season "flop jobs." Why can't YOU except the fact that those guys were just as pathetic "chokers" as Wilt?

[LAZERUSS]

None of them were in a situation like Wilt in 1968 and 1969. We went through this a million times man. Like I said, if you don't find any fault in this GOAT level talent laying eggs in these close out games, there no point discussing.

Many of the situations you described above are lacking proper context. Like being the far inferior team. That wasn't the case for Wilt.

Except...your definition of "laying an egg" is odd, don't you think?

I mean REALLY...the man is playing every minute of a brutal seven game series, NOTICEABLY LIMPING (with the SAME injury that Reed missed chunks of games with)...and with OVER HALF of his supporting roster playing hurt...and hanging a 22-25-7 series...and he "laid an egg?"

Or badly outplaying Russell in game seven of the '69 Finals? You mean an 18-27 game on an .875 FG% is "laying an egg?"

And yes, Wilt played on "FAR INFERIOR TEAMS" several times in his post-season career.

In fact, how about this...in Wilt's 13 post-seasons, he faced the eventual champion in TEN of them, and then WON two more. And in those ten losses, he was outgunned by HOF teammates in nearly ALL of them. Oh, and his TEAM lost FIVE game seven's...with FOUR of them by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.

You want REALITY...

And here are Wilt's 23 "must win" playoff game numbers...

12-11 W-L record

[COLOR="DarkRed"]31.1 ppg[/COLOR] (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)


3 games of 50+ points (including the ONLY THREE by a GOAT candidate)

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds


and here are his 37 "must win and series clinching playoff games"...

Wilt actually played in 37 "elimination games",...games where either his team faced elimination, or could have clinched the series:

1. W: 53-22-2, 24-42 FG/FGA

2. W: 50-35-2, 22-42

3. L: 26-24-0, 8-18

4. L: 33-23-1, 13-29

5. W: 56-35-1, 22-48

6. W: 32-21-1, 12-29

7. L: 22-22-3, 7-15

8. W: 39-30-?, 19-29

9. L: 30-27-2, 12-28

10. W: 38-26-5, 14-22, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

11. W: 30-26-4, 13-22, 13 blks (Triple-Double)

12. L: 30-32-2, 12-15

13. L: 46-34-?, 19-34

14. W: 18-27-9, 7-14

15. W: 29-36-13, 10-16, 7 blks (Triple-Double)

16. W: 24-23-4, 8-13

17. W: 25-27-3, 10-19

18. L: 28-30-7, 11-21

19. L: 20-27-8, 6-21

20. L: 14-34-5, 4-9

21. W: 11-25-1, 5-9

22. W: 16-29-3, 5-11, 16 blks (Triple-Double)

23. L: 8-18-4, 1-5

24. L: 18-27-3, 7-8

25. W: 36-14-3, 12-20

26. W: 12-26-11, 4-11, 11 blks (Quad-Double)

27. W: 30-27-6, 11-18, 11 blks (Triple-Double)

28. W: 45-27-3, 20-27

29. L: 21-24-4, 10-16

30. W: 25-19-9, 7-12

31. L: 23-12-4, 10-21

32. W: 8-31-8, 4-6

33. W: 20-24-2, 8-12, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

34. W: 24-29-4, 10-14, 8 blks

35. W: 21-28-4, 10-17, 8 blks

36. W: 5-22-7, 2-2

37. L: 23-21-3, 9-16


W-L : 24-13

Here were Wilt's averages in those 37 games:

[COLOR="DarkRed"]29.5 ppg[/COLOR]

26.1 rpg

4.2 apg (missing one game)

.546 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .440 on average in that span.)

Keep in mind that 24 of those 37 games came after his "scoring seasons" (59-60 thru 65-66)


THAT was the Wilt whom lacked a "killer instinct."

[ClipperRevival]

[LAZERUSS]

[LAZERUSS]

Ether.

Thanks for totally shredding that garbage article. Van Breda Kolff would have been brought up on charges for criminally bad coaching. The author of this article was waiting for Wilt to fall off and figured his window of opportunity was small and just let it go.

I honestly can't think of another coach who so single-handedly led his team to a defeat.

I mean...having the greatest low-post player in NBA history playing the HIGH POST? Or benching him in the last five minutes of a game seven of the Finals...in a two point loss? Or allowing Baylor to shot-jack his team right down the toilet in the series?

Of course, when Wilt had great coaching (which wasn't very often)...two dominant title teams. And usually 60+ win seasons.

[ClipperRevival]

Centers always were kind of dependent on guards getting them the ball or systemic play and rarely win without great coaching or guards - that's why you didn't mention any offensive centers in your list above. Shaq without great coaching and system play had some great teams in Orlando and LA and only had one year where he really won on his play. The refs were heavily in play in three of those rings. There was nothing Beta about Shaq's game at all. He had the best teammates in his era. You are oversimplifying things way too hard. Its true with the greatest centers Shaq, Wilt and Kareem.

Lol. So you are discrediting 3 of Shaq's rings? Yeah, that's objective. And bigs can also fight hard to get good position and impose their will on the game or go half ass and blame others when he didn't get the ball. People continue to completely underestimate the mental aspect of the game. These are people who never competed at a high level imo (not saying you specifically). The game isn't played by robots. 30 points is not all the same. You get 30 within the flow or at the expense of your team. You can get 15 empty rebounds because you playe out of position or get 10 hard fought rebounds. Spewing individual numbers without proper context is weak stuff, which is all Wilt fans do.

[LAZERUSS]

Lol. So you are discrediting 3 of Shaq's rings? Yeah, that's objective. And bigs can also fight hard to get good position and impose their will on the game or go half ass and blame others when he didn't get the ball. People continue to completely underestimate the mental aspect of the game. These are people who never competed at a high level imo (not saying you specifically). The game isn't played by robots. 30 points is not all the same. You get 30 within the flow or at the expense of your team. You can get 15 empty rebounds because you playe out of position or get 10 hard fought rebounds. Spewing individual numbers without proper context is weak stuff, which is all Wilt fans do.

Shaq doesn't win two rings without Kobe leading the Lakers past the Spurs in the WCF's. Plain-and-simple. In fact, Shaq had a HUGE dropoff from his regular season numbers in one of them.

And, without Wade in '06...nada on yet another ring.

Jordan didn't win shit until he had rosters that could win 55+ games without him (and were one play away from at least going to the ECF's.) In fact, he LOST with that SAME roster the next year. He needed the ADDITION of HOFer Rodman to win his last three rings.

KAJ without Magic? ONE ring...and a decade of under-achieving.

Hakeem? The clown couldn't get past the first round in HALF of his post-season career. I have given the numbers before, but had Wilt been "fortunate enough" to have lost EIGHT times in the FIRST ROUND, his playoff stats would have been considerably higher.

Bird? A long list of playoff disasters. In fact, he "only" won three rings, with HOF laden rosters in his entire career, and in fact, barely won one against a 40-42 team and with a 15 ppg .419 series.

Kobe? Some horrific Finals. Arguably the worst Top-10 Finals performer of all-time.