Pippen: In 1173 games, (49) 30+ games and (5) 40+ games.

[3ball]

That call would not have guaranteed them an ECF berth. Try again. Those Bulls likely don't even get past the first round had the Cavs been healthy.

Very true..

And the 94' Bulls weren't going to rebound from their early round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 1st Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

Obviously, the gap between permanent 1st Round team and 3-peat dynasty is utterly massive.
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[3ball]

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[COLOR="Red"]Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor[/COLOR]


.
[COLOR="White"]........................[/COLOR]RS[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR]RS 4th[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] PO[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR]PO 4th[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR]Finals[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997.... 36.0..... 40.1..... 37.7..... 46.3...... 40.9...... 50.4
JORDAN 1998.... 36.3..... 42.1..... 39.7..... 48.8...... 43.6...... 49.1


PIPPEN 1997..... 24.7..... 22.2..... 24.6..... 25.6....... 25.1...... 26.4
PIPPEN 1998..... 24.1..... 19.7..... 21.9..... 15.8....... 22.1...... 14.7



There's a couple ways to look at this data.

You can either say that "wow, MJ's proportion of the team's 4th quarter points was twice as much as Pippen.. MJ carried the heaviest load."

Or, you can say "wow, MJ and Pip scored 75% of their team's 4th quarter points (in 1997) - they had no help and were a top-heavy team.. MJ carried the heaviest load".

Either way, the result is the same - MJ's goat and carried the GOAT load... Btw, Pippen was AIDS in the 4th during 1998 playoffs and Finals - MJ did everything.

[dhsilv]

Uhhh, because it was PIPPEN HIMSELF along with Grant who had subpar years in 1993, which iss what caused the Bulls to "only" win 57 games. Pippen admitted that he doggedd it that regular season due to fatigue from the Dream Team. The next season, you had Pippen and Grant performing up to their 1992 levels (when the Bulls won 67 games), plus they added some scoring/passing punch in Kukoc and role players, plus playing against teams who underestimated them, plus playing in a (to that time) nearly historically weak league (league-wide ORtg dropped nearly 2 points between 1993 and 1994) along with 6 years of championship experience, chemistry, an equal opportunity offensive system and GOAT coaching.

I love how no one wants to compare the '94 Bulls to the 67 wwin '92 Bulls when it was Pippen and Grant who caused the '93 Bulls to have such a relatively poor record to begin with.

We're still talking a 12 game drop and the bulls really didnt add anything close to a legit starting shooting guard to that team. Pippen played absolutely amazing defense when Jordan left.

Pippen is imo the guy I MOST want to see real plus minus data on and why I hope and pray some day some professor puts all his grad students into watching every damn 90's nba game and charting the play by play so we can get that data!

I fully believe Pippen would shock people on those kinds of stats because he was just absurdly valuable in so many ways that the box score will never adequately capture.

[Dragonyeuw]

Uhhh, because it was PIPPEN HIMSELF along with Grant who had subpar years in 1993, which iss what caused the Bulls to "only" win 57 games. Pippen admitted that he doggedd it that regular season due to fatigue from the Dream Team. The next season, you had Pippen and Grant performing up to their 1992 levels (when the Bulls won 67 games), plus they added some scoring/passing punch in Kukoc and role players, plus playing against teams who underestimated them, plus playing in a (to that time) nearly historically weak league (league-wide ORtg dropped nearly 2 points between 1993 and 1994) along with 6 years of championship experience, chemistry, an equal opportunity offensive system and GOAT coaching.

I love how no one wants to compare the '94 Bulls to the 67 wwin '92 Bulls when it was Pippen and Grant who caused the '93 Bulls to have such a relatively poor record to begin with.

Because it kills their argument, granted the 94 Bulls probably could have won 60+ had Pippen and Grant not missed 10+ games that year. But still, its rarely mentioned that Pippen's production dropped off in 93 from the prior year, specifically in scoring there was a 14 point difference between MJ (32.6) and Pip(18.6).

The 93 team was more about pacing themselves for that third title run, and as defending champs would have everyone gunning for them. The 94 team pretty much maxed out, and expectations were clearly lower, I doubt everyone was gunning for them like the 93 team with Jordan. Still, without MJ they had a championship poise that made them largely overachieve. But a second round exit is about the best that team could reasonably hope for, bad call or not. Hypothetically with an MJ still in his prime, Pippen and Grant in theirs, with the additions of Kukoc, Longley etc, that team easily wins the championship and may have been arguably the best of those Bulls title teams, 96 team included.

So comparing 57 vs 55 wins between the teams without context has always been a flawed weapon for the MJ detractors to use to diminish his impact.

[sdot_thadon]

See, I don't understand this. Pippen was the ultimate 2nd option, not even approached by anyone else ever except perhaps young kobe. Why Jordanaires have this eternal mission of trashing all of Mjs teammates is beyond me. They want to overstate the already sizable gap between Mj and pip as players, not give any credit to his contributions and basically disrespect a legend constantly. No matter how you fellas spin this bullshit, it can't add to Mjs career of take away from scotties. It already happened and was documented. Pippen was the 2nd best perimeter player in the league for most of the 90s. So either that pippen guy was pretty great, or..... Mj had shit competition on the perimeter during the 90s?

[Dragonyeuw]

Why Jordanaires have this eternal mission of trashing all of Mjs teammates is beyond me. They want to overstate the already sizable gap between Mj and pip as players, not give any credit to his contributions and basically disrespect a legend constantly.

On the flipside, you have your MJ haters who blindly scream 1-9 and 57 vs 55 wins to discredit MJ. You seem reasonable enough to see that the door swings both ways. The only MJ fan I see who goes out of his way to discredit Pip is 3ball. The rest of the MJ/Bulls fans I feel respect what Pippen brought to the table, even while acknowledging MJ as the catalyst for those squads. It is possible to give the two of them their just due.

[3ball]

See, I don't understand this. Pippen was the ultimate 2nd option

Not scoring-wise - if Pippen was an "ultimate" 2nd option scoring-wise, then MJ wouldn't need to score so much.

MJ wouldn't need to score 10 ppg more than Pippen for every playoff series of their careers (except two, where MJ scored 8 ppg and 5 ppg more).. No one has ever scored this much more than their 2nd option for every playoff series of their careers - it's pretty ridiculous.

Pippen only averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% during 1996-1998 playoffs - this included his WOAT Finals performances in 1996 (15 ppg on 34%) and 1998 (8 and 6 points in final 2 games.. 15 ppg on 41% overall)... This is far from the "ultimate 2nd option".

As a 2nd option, Pippen isn't even approached by anyone else ever except perhaps young kobe.

Ridiculous - how about Kareem, Magic, Penny, McHale, Worthy, Dr. J in 1983, Stockton, just to name a few.

Heck, how about 2011 prime Wade, who averaged 26 ppg in playoffs and 27 ppg in Finals?

There are many more - again, Pippen averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% in 1996-1998 playoffs, which is far from a best-ever 2nd option, especially when that includes two WOAT Finals.

Pippen was the 2nd best perimeter player in the league for most of the 90s.

More bullshit... Payton, Stockton, Drexler, Penny, Hill, Dominique and King were all better at various points in the 90's.
.

[sdot_thadon]

On the flipside, you have your MJ haters who blindly scream 1-9 and 57 vs 55 wins to discredit MJ. You seem reasonable enough to see that the door swings both ways. The only MJ fan I see who goes out of his way to discredit Pip is 3ball. The rest of the MJ/Bulls fans I feel respect what Pippen brought to the table, even while acknowledging MJ as the catalyst for those squads. It is possible to give the two of them their just due.

Understood, the trolls that do that are basically counter trolling the 2 for 6 stuff, this place is a cesspool at times unfortunately. But you guys already know ahead of time those kids don't know what happened back then. The only time it's worth referring to that is when people act as if Mj was a one man traveling circus winning rings with the 3 stooges. It's more shameful to me that adults who watched it live supposedly need to warp the facts. It's more damaging than helpful to how the new generation who didn't get to watch them perceive Mj and his legacy. I saw it happen with wilt during Mjs time. These guy just need to keep it real.

[sdot_thadon]

Not scoring-wise - if Pippen was an "ultimate" 2nd option scoring-wise, then MJ wouldn't need to score so much.

MJ wouldn't need to score 10 ppg more than Pippen for every playoff series of their careers (except two, where MJ scored 8 ppg and 5 ppg more).. No one has ever scored this much more than their 2nd option for every playoff series of their careers - it's pretty ridiculous.

Pippen only averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% during 1996-1998 playoffs - this included his WOAT Finals performances in 1996 (15 ppg on 34%) and 1998 (8 and 6 points in final 2 games.. 15 ppg on 41% overall)... This is far from the "ultimate 2nd option".



Ridiculous - how about Kareem, Magic, Penny, McHale, Worthy, Dr. J in 1983, Stockton, just to name a few.

Heck, how about 2011 prime Wade, who averaged 26 ppg in playoffs and 27 ppg in Finals?

There are many more - again, Pippen averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% in 1996-1998 playoffs, which is far from a best-ever 2nd option, especially when that includes two WOAT Finals.



More bullshit... Payton, Stockton, Drexler, Penny, Hill, Dominique and King were all better at various points in the 90's.

Quit crying dude. Mj didn't "have" to score that much, he demanded to. None of those 2nd options you named has the same utility, or could impact the games as hugely without shots as pippen. So in terms of compatibility he is unapproached. And your list of 90s guys better than pippen? none of them were as good over the entire 90s.

Gp: pretty close at times as a number one option compared to a no. 2. Ridiculous
Stockton: underrated generally but couldn't impact the overall game the way scottie did.
Drexler: past prime for most of the 90s. Was already declining when he got here in 95.
Penny: one of my favorite players ever but nah.
Hill: was on a trajectory to be better than scottie and even could say had better seasons than scottie.....as a no.1 vs. A no. 2 option.
Dominique: past prime for how much of the 90s bro?
King:

2nd 3peat the only guy you could menation was hill, with the caveat that most of us knew scottie could do similar if not better than what grant was doing with his own team. See: 1994.

[3ball]

The only MJ fan I see who goes out of his way to discredit Pip is 3ball.

Show me specifically where I'm unreasonable in trashing Pippen.

When I trash Pippen, I do so with facts, because there are MANY when it comes to Pippen.. I post his shitty stats... I post the plethora of quotes from other players who feel the same way I do... I post the biggest-ever gap between his 2nd option stats and Jordan's first option stats.. I post about his many chokes.

These are all facts that I accentuate to prove he wasn't anywhere NEAR other 2nd options like Kareem, Magic, McHale, Dr. J, Kobe, and many more.

And the only thing I ever say about 1994, is that the Bulls were a 2nd Round team without MJ, and a 3-peat dynasty with MJ.

What's wrong with that?... It's the exact truth - that was MJ's impact - it couldn't be more clear-cut... Tell me where I'm wrong.
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[kennethgriffin]

Pip was #1 option in 1994, but only averaged 22 ppg..

He's a 22 ppg #1 option, which is far from elite as scorers go.

yet people on here say duncans better than kobe with his best scoring season being some 22ppg shit



and pippens an even better on ball defender than duncan


funny how we let 1 guy slide for not putting up great scoring numbers due to his defensive impact but not others

[3ball]

King:

[COLOR="Navy"]BERNARD[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] KING 1991: 28/5/5.. all-star[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]SCOTTIE PIPPEN 1991: 18/7/6.. not all-star[/COLOR]

[Yoshio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qd6Aq1FeyA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJmT8b0z6lQ

[Dragonyeuw]

Show me specifically where I'm unreasonable in trashing Pippen.

When I trash Pippen, I do so with facts, because there are MANY when it comes to Pippen.. I post his shitty stats... I post the plethora of quotes from other players who feel the same way I do... I post the biggest-ever gap between his 2nd option stats and Jordan's first option stats.. I post about his many chokes.

These are all facts that I accentuate to prove he wasn't anywhere NEAR other 2nd options like Kareem, Magic, McHale, Dr. J, Kobe, and many more.

And the only thing I ever say about 1994, is that the Bulls were a 2nd Round team without MJ, and a 3-peat dynasty with MJ.

What's wrong with that?... It's the exact truth - that was MJ's impact - it couldn't be more clear-cut... Tell me where I'm wrong.
.

On the flipside, you have your MJ haters who blindly scream 1-9 and 57 vs 55 wins to discredit MJ. The only MJ fan I see who goes out of his way to discredit Pip is 3ball. The rest of the MJ/Bulls fans I feel respect what Pippen brought to the table, even while acknowledging MJ as the catalyst for those squads. It is possible to give the two of them their just due.

[sdot_thadon]

[COLOR="Navy"]BERNARD[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] KING 1991: 28/5/5.. all-star[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]SCOTTIE PIPPEN 1991: 18/7/6.. not all-star[/COLOR]

Sure, at 23.6 fga per game to 14.1......

I saw I you paste post a chuck daly quote on scottie, why not post what he had to say about him In 92?
[QUOTE]I remember talking to the late Chuck Daly after that 1992 Dream Team and Daly raving about Pippen. Daly said he knew Pippen was a potential MVP candidate type player, but said Pippen was the best player on the 1992 team.