Is there actually a way to guage if a makes others better or not??

[kennethgriffin]

odom coulda helped a bit too in 2012... ****ing stern

[NZStreetBaller]

Yes.

If his name is Kobe, Westbrook, or Carmelo, then he doesnt.

If it's not, he does.

This is the retarded thing im about. Like some people have special powers to makes othwers better and other people are cancers and we use stats to try and back it. Or atleast W L stats. People on this board literally have no understanding about team/game mechanics/psychology

[3ball]

We go on and on about this crap of players making others better. and i seriously do not thinks its the case at all.

The bigger issue is whether a player's presence hurts or helps other players ability to play to their capacity, since that affects whether the team can play to capacity..

In Lebron's case, there are stats which show his style doesn't foster as much teamwork as say, Jordan's style.. For example, it's statistical fact that the APG of Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Love and Bosh all decreased significantly alongside Lebron, while Pippen's and other teammates increased alongside Jordan.. This is statistical fact.

Also, there was little or no increase in the Heat or Cavs' assist frequency during Lebron's time there, whereas the Bulls' assist frequency increased significantly during MJ's time - again, statistical fact.. Off-ball players like MJ foster better teamwork - they always have low time of possession and are highly-assisted, so teammates literally have more assist opportunities and playmaking time.

[knicksman]

well if youre a scorer but dominates the ball instead of off-ball then youre depriving your teammates of apg. Same is true for pgs who scores instead of pass, theyre depriving their teammates of points. Thats why players like iverson, robertson are considered cancers by teammates which led to them being losers. And the same reason why bran is just 2/6 despite his stats and teammates. Jordan sacrificed stats and it resulted to 6/6 instead of multiple 1st round exits.

[dubeta]

well if youre a scorer but dominates the ball instead of off-ball then youre depriving your teammates of apg. Same is true for pgs who scores instead of pass, theyre depriving their teammates of points. Thats why players like iverson, robertson are considered cancers by teammates which led to them being losers. And the same reason why bran is just 2/6 despite his stats and teammates. Jordan sacrificed stats and it resulted to 6/6 instead of multiple 1st round exits.

Jordans entire career was a series of 1st round exits




Of course, until the alpha Scottie Pippen came around

[pauk]

Simple... team success, with & without him on the floor is a good way to see....

Titles i hear somebody say, yes i guess that is team success aswell, winning it all at the end is just a bonus but not necessary at all to measure a guys impact.... its all about the context, namely what the guy had to work with around him, for example taking a scrub team to the promise land shows more impact than cruising along a stacked team.......

[NZStreetBaller]

Simple... team success, with & without him on the floor is a good way to see....

Titles i hear somebody say, yes i guess that is team success aswell, winning it all at the end is just a bonus but not necessary at all to measure a guys impact.... its all about the context, namely what the guy had to work with around him, for example taking a scrub team to the promise land shows more impact than cruising along a stacked team.......

True. So we discredit those who go to the promised land with more help??

[Mr. Jabbar]

damn. kenneth straight up schooling fools in this thread

[3ball]

Simple... team success, with & without him on the floor is a good way to see....

Titles i hear somebody say, yes i guess that is team success aswell, winning it all at the end is just a bonus but not necessary at all to measure a guys impact.... its all about the context, namely what the guy had to work with around him, for example taking a scrub team to the Finals shows more impact than cruising along a stacked team to the Finals.......

During 1991-1993 playoffs, MJ won with just Pippen's 20/8/6 and Grant's 11/8... That's it.. In 1996-1998 playoffs, he won with just Pippen's 17/7/5.. Rodman had 4/8 in 1998 playoffs.

Compare that to Lebron LOSING with Wade's 25/7/4 and Bosh's 19/9 in 2011 playoffs.

Overall, in 2011-2014 playoffs, Lebron went 2/4 with Wade's 20/5/4 and Bosh's 15/8... Also, HOF-Ray Allen could've been starter anywhere else, but agreed to come off bench for Heat and save Lebron's career.

[dubeta]

During 1991-1993 playoffs, MJ won with just Pippen's 20/8/6 and Grant's 11/8... That's it.. In 1996-1998 playoffs, he won with just Pippen's 17/7/5.. Rodman had 4/8 in 1998 playoffs.

Compare that to Lebron LOSING with Wade's 25/7/4 and Bosh's 19/9 in 2011.

Overall, in 2011-2014 playoffs, Lebron went 2/4 with Wade's 20/5/4 and Bosh's 15/8... Oh, and HOF-Ray Allen could've been starter anywhere else, but agreed to come off bench for Heat and save Lebron's career.. We all remember that.

What were Wade and Boshs stats in their championship years (2012-2013)?

[Akrazotile]

Jordans entire career was a series of 1st round exits




Of course, until the alpha Scottie Pippen came around

Like the old saying says.

When the going gets tough... Pippen gets THICK

[3ball]

Like the old saying says.

When the going gets tough... Pippen gets THICK

[COLOR="Red"]WOAT Support from 2nd Option:[/COLOR]

1988 ECSF:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 9 ppg on 42%
1989 ECF:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 10 ppg on 40%
1996 Finals: 15 ppg on 34%
1998 Finals: 15 ppg on 41%

Most importantly, Pippen had the epic choke in Game 7 of 1990 ECF, which cost the Bulls their first championship - they would've beaten the Blazers in the Finals since the Pistons beat the Blazers in 6, but needed 7 and Pippen choke to beat Bulls.

[GoatBoy]

Lebron, Harden, Kidd, Bird, Magic Nash Curry, Westbrook, Pippen are all players that make their teammates better. Players like Melo, Wilkins, Iverson, Jordan, Kobe just aren't capable.

[Duffy Pratt]

When Magic joined the Lakers, they went from a strong team to a championship, and the stats of the guys he played with went up- including Kareem and Wilkes.

When Bird came to the Celtics, the team went immediately from one of the worst teams in the league to a title contender, and again the stats of the other guys on the team went up.

Jordan didn't have quite the same impact on his arrival with the Bulls. They went from dreadful to mediocre, but the stats of the guys on the team didn't go up with his arrival.

That's one thing you can look at. Another, is what happens when someone leaves for free agency. Look at all the promising players who left the Stockton Malone Jazz and fizzled. Guys like Howard Eisley and Shandon Anderson.

On this measure, I think Horace Grant, for example, gives some evidence that Jordan or the Bulls were making him better. With Steve Kerr, not so much.

[knicksman]

Jordans entire career was a series of 1st round exits




Of course, until the alpha Scottie Pippen came around

you are so mad that your boy is just 2/6 while jordan 6/6