Michael Jordan in Today's League: Better or Worse?

[DonDadda59]

Blatant disrespect for Harden. Can't take anything you say seriously. Defenses changed slower than the rule changes. After 2008 perimeter players scoring dropped off again as teams figured out how to use defensive freedom to slow down guys like that.

Except for those times that Dwyane Wade averaged 30 PPG in '09 and Durant averaged 30-32 PPG in several seasons.

Replace Durant's current/former teammates last season with 28-30 year old Kobe and Iverson and you see 2 guys easily put up 32+ PPG.

Today's game is played at a slower pace. Stars play less minutes across the board, and take less shots.

The late 90s was the slowest paced era ever and a 33-35 year old MJ was still getting off shots and winning scoring titles on championship teams. No change in pace, rules, etc is going to deter the GOAT from getting buckets.

Kobe Bryant FTR '97 - '04: .390

Kobe Bryant FTR '06 - '13: .378

You added the years he spent on the bench, that skews things. Here's a more in depth look:


Star perimeter players who played under both sets of rules (3 sec/handchecking/no handchecking):

Allen Iverson

'96-'01 (handchecking, no 3-sec rule): .385 [.449 peak]
'01-'05 (handchecking, 3-sec rule): .391 [.432 peak]
'05-'09 (no handchecking, 3-sec rule): [COLOR="Red"].468[/COLOR] [.512 peak *full season*]

*AI, drafted in 1996, had his career scoring high in 2006 (33 PPG) just after handchecking on the perimeter was completely eliminated.

Kobe Bryant (As a Starter)

'98-'01: (handchecking, no 3-sec rule): .361 [.375 peak]
'01-'05: (handchecking, 3-sec rule): .415 [.502 peak]
'05-'10: (no handchecking, 3-sec rule): .401 [.437 peak]

*Kobe, drafted in 1996, had his career scoring high in 2006 (35.4 PPG) just after handchecking on the perimeter was completely eliminated

You're welcome

[ralph_i_el]

While I partially agree with you, I do have a few points I would like to make.

1. Personally, many people say pace doesent truly effect star scoring, and while the correlation might not be huge, it is foolish however to say that there ISNT a relationship. the correlation increases as the situation gets more extreme. good point about shots, which refutes this point completely.
2. One thing I would like to mention is that this depends on what team he plays in. realistically, Jordan imo was the best player of all time in transition, and Dipper/Phila's research supports this theory, as he shot something like 90% over a 132 game span in transition. for comparison, Lebron generally shoots somewhere in the 70s, even in 09, which imo is his peak year.
3. to all the people talking about how he would dominate because of spacing, defenses are obviously much more complicated today. not gonna go in depth on that lol. But tbh, He already attacked teh rim as good as anyone, what makes people think he would suddenly do better? what, does his percentage go from around 77% to 79% at the rim?
3.
I believe that while his raw stats might not be as impressive, because of minutes and pace, his impact would probably stay the same. After-all, he is far better than people like peak Kobe on offense, and obviously, was a monster defensively as well.
4.
Even now, people fail to realize the nuances of his game. I wont go into depth now, but in terms of his basketball IQ, I find it criminally underrated.

I agree with all of this.

I've said like 3 times in this thread that MJ would clearly be the best in the league.

I just think it's foolish to think that he would score 40ppg Like you said, he shot like 90% on fastbreaks....in the 80's.....where there were a ton of fastbreaks....

Durant is basically is Ralph Sampson size, with handles and one of the best J's of all time and he will never get close to a 40ppg season.

[ralph_i_el]

The late 90s was the slowest paced era ever and a 33-35 year old MJ was still getting off shots and winning scoring titles on championship teams. No change in pace, rules, etc is going to deter the GOAT from getting buckets.



You added the years he spent on the bench, that skews things. Here's a more in depth look:


Star perimeter players who played under both sets of rules (3 sec/handchecking/no handchecking):

Allen Iverson

'96-'01 (handchecking, no 3-sec rule): .385 [.449 peak]
'01-'05 (handchecking, 3-sec rule): .391 [.432 peak]
'05-'09 (no handchecking, 3-sec rule): [COLOR="Red"].468[/COLOR] [.512 peak *full season*]

*AI, drafted in 1996, had his career scoring high in 2006 (33 PPG) just after handchecking on the perimeter was completely eliminated.

Kobe Bryant (As a Starter)

'98-'01: (handchecking, no 3-sec rule): .361 [.375 peak]
'01-'05: (handchecking, 3-sec rule): .415 [.502 peak]
'05-'10: (no handchecking, 3-sec rule): .401 [.437 peak]

*Kobe, drafted in 1996, had his career scoring high in 2006 (35.4 PPG) just after handchecking on the perimeter was completely eliminated

You're welcome

But MJ wasn't anywhere close to 40ppg in the 90's you're just proving my point.


And yes, right after handchecking was removed perimeter players scored more....until defenses figured out how to take advantage of the new freedoms allowed with the removal of illegal D. That was around '08.

And you have to account for Bryant and Iverson getting more veteran calls as they got older. Less athletic finishes, more fouls drawn.

[DonDadda59]

I agree with all of this.

I've said like 3 times in this thread that MJ would clearly be the best in the league.

I just think it's foolish to think that he would score 40ppg

Durant is basically is Ralph Sampson size, with handles and one of the best J's of all time and he will never get close to a 40ppg season.

*If Ralph Sampson was as weak as a newborn kitten and couldn't get post position against Joe Dumars*

But MJ wasn't anywhere close to 40ppg in the 90's you're just proving my point.

You don't have a point. You're just spewing nonsensical shit that has been disproven by reality.

Of course a 35 year old Jordan wouldn't come close to 40 PPG in any era. But Captain Marvel put up 37 PPG with the next closest scorer being 8 PPG lower. Give Cap the sort of freedom and ridiculous free throw rate as prime James Kukoc and he pushses 40.

And yes, right after handchecking was removed perimeter players scored more....until defenses figured out how to take advantage of the new freedoms allowed with the removal of illegal D. That was around '08

None of that is true.

And after '08 Wade and Durant had several 30-32 PPG seasons, Durant having done it just a season ago on a contender with the reigning scoring champion on his squad.

[juju151111]

But MJ wasn't anywhere close to 40ppg in the 90's you're just proving my point.


And yes, right after handchecking was removed perimeter players scored more....until defenses figured out how to take advantage of the new freedoms allowed with the removal of illegal D. That was around '08.

And you have to account for Bryant and Iverson getting more veteran calls as they got older. Less athletic finishes, more fouls drawn.

Mj had a better team in the 90s but he still averged 33ppg one year

[ralph_i_el]

*If Ralph Sampson was as weak as a newborn kitten and couldn't get post position against Joe Dumars*






You don't have a point. You're just spewing nonsensical shit that has been disproven by reality.

Of course a 35 year old Jordan wouldn't come close to 40 PPG in any era. But Captain Marvel put up 37 PPG with the next closest scorer being 8 PPG lower. Give Cap the sort of freedom and ridiculous free throw rate as prime James Kukoc and he pushses 40.



None of that is true.

And after '08 Wade and Durant had several 30-32 PPG seasons, Durant having done it just a season ago on a contender with the reigning scoring champion on his squad.

I can't keep arguing with morons. Free throw rate is FTA/FGA. It's useful because players attempt shots that don't end up being counted as FGA because of fouls. free throw rate just measures the balance between shots and free throws. It doesn't mean MJ is going to score a ton more points. If he had a higher free throw rate it likely would mean he was getting fewer FGA and instead getting more FTA, but since he was so efficient from the field, it wouldn't really impact his overall efficiency that much.

To score 40ppg, he'd have increase his already historic usg% by a substantial amount, or increase his overall efficiency to unprecedented levels for a high usg% player. Substantially higher than guys like Harden, who already pushes efficiency to insane levels by only shooting layups+freethrows+and 3's


even if MJ lead the league by a huge margin in mid range by shooting like 55%....a substantial improvement on his actual numbers (for reference, spot up guys like Al Horford or Dirk have been leading the league shooting close to 50% from midrange) that would keep his efficiency from reaching the levels necessary to score 40ppg.

He's not taking 30 shots per game, and he's not shooting 70 TS%

no 40 point season. The only way that's possible is if he was on the 6er's and they only wanted to win 25 games with the GOAT.

[Rocketswin2013]

Bryant's % at the rim '01 - '04: .640%

Bryant's % at the rim '06 - '13: .635%

And if anyone wants to make a claim about Bryant slashing less in the 10's or any other point. He had a .501 ftr in 1998 as an all-star, and a .437 one in 2004. You can really use these splits and make them look any way you want. The fact is, Bryant's slashing game difference between the "eras" isn't statistically significant.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

*If Ralph Sampson was as weak as a newborn kitten and couldn't get post position against Joe Dumars*






You don't have a point. You're just spewing nonsensical shit that has been disproven by reality.

Of course a 35 year old Jordan wouldn't come close to 40 PPG in any era. But Captain Marvel put up 37 PPG with the next closest scorer being 8 PPG lower. Give Cap the sort of freedom and ridiculous free throw rate as prime James Kukoc and he pushses 40.



None of that is true.

And after '08 Wade and Durant had several 30-32 PPG seasons, Durant having done it just a season ago on a contender with the reigning scoring champion on his squad.

Technically, captain marvel represent multiple characters in the fiction universe, some female.

Also, I don't think the arguement is that if Jordan COULD average 40. He could probably average it in 91, in expense of his fg%
(To get 37 PPg, he would only need to make 1.4 in 3.2 shots, in a per 36 basis, and his fg% would still be above 50)

My arguement is that it might not be effective, this is similar to my arguement said against certain Kobe stans, and against wilt.

Effective means in the sense that it's the best use of the players talents.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Agreed and another thing is Mj played in slow pace systems

The thing is, the gap is probably closed when you factor in 3 point shooting, which increases the pace of most teams.

[DonDadda59]

I can't keep arguing with morons. Free throw rate is FTA/FGA. It's useful because players attempt shots that don't end up being counted as FGA because of fouls. free throw rate just measures the balance between shots and free throws. It doesn't mean MJ is going to score a ton more points. If he had a higher free throw rate it likely would mean he was getting fewer FGA and instead getting more FTA, but since he was so efficient from the field, it wouldn't really impact his overall efficiency that much.

To score 40ppg, he'd have increase his already historic usg% by a substantial amount, or increase his overall efficiency to unprecedented levels for a high usg% player. Substantially higher than guys like Harden, who already pushes efficiency to insane levels by only shooting layups+freethrows+and 3's


even if MJ lead the league by a huge margin in mid range by shooting like 55%....a substantial improvement on his actual numbers (for reference, spot up guys like Al Horford or Dirk have been leading the league shooting close to 50% from midrange) that would keep his efficiency from reaching the levels necessary to score 40ppg.

He's not taking 30 shots per game, and he's not shooting 70 TS%

no 40 point season. The only way that's possible is if he was on the 6er's and they only wanted to win 25 games with the GOAT.

Broseph, Kobe Beans Bryant averaged 35.4 PPG on a playoff team after the rule changes. He took 27 FGA, shooting 45% FG, .559 TS%, with only a .377 FTr.

If Captain Marvel on a shitty team takes full advantage of the rules and gets those James Kukoc FTr while taking a shot or more than Beans while maintaining similar shooting #s... He's getting 40

[90sgoat]

Posters like 'ralph' are willfully liars. They full well know that DonDadda has ethered them but tomorrow they will continue to lie.

The mark of the internet troll, a low grade case of sociopathy.

[juju151111]

I can't keep arguing with morons. Free throw rate is FTA/FGA. It's useful because players attempt shots that don't end up being counted as FGA because of fouls. free throw rate just measures the balance between shots and free throws. It doesn't mean MJ is going to score a ton more points. If he had a higher free throw rate it likely would mean he was getting fewer FGA and instead getting more FTA, but since he was so efficient from the field, it wouldn't really impact his overall efficiency that much.

To score 40ppg, he'd have increase his already historic usg% by a substantial amount, or increase his overall efficiency to unprecedented levels for a high usg% player. Substantially higher than guys like Harden, who already pushes efficiency to insane levels by only shooting layups+freethrows+and 3's


even if MJ lead the league by a huge margin in mid range by shooting like 55%....a substantial improvement on his actual numbers (for reference, spot up guys like Al Horford or Dirk have been leading the league shooting close to 50% from midrange) that would keep his efficiency from reaching the levels necessary to score 40ppg.

He's not taking 30 shots per game, and he's not shooting 70 TS%

no 40 point season. The only way that's possible is if he was on the 6er's and they only wanted to win 25 games with the GOAT.

Bro 34year old Mj was at a similar midrange to Dirk. Mj at 34

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Broseph, Kobe Beans Bryant averaged 35.4 PPG on a playoff team after the rule changes. He took 27 FGA, shooting 45% FG, .559 TS%, with only a .377 FTr.

If Captain Marvel on a shitty team takes full advantage of the rules and gets those James Kukoc FTr while taking a shot or more than Beans while maintaining similar shooting #s... He's getting 40

Once again, my arguement is based in the actual efficiency of volume scoring. Scoring something like 45 PPg on 53% will always be beneficial to your team , though it can be misleading.

A certain player you hate is my reasoning for this

[ClipperRevival]

On a bad team in this era, I could see MJ possibly averaging 40 ppg. But only on a bad team where his usage would be very high like in 1987.

But this is the era to play in if you are an athletic, wing player. No hand checking, no physical contact allowed with great spacing and not many great rim protectors. MJ proved he was the GOAT at attacking the basket and finishing in a much tougher era for wing players.

[Sarcastic]

Posters like 'ralph' are willfully liars. They full well know that DonDadda has ethered them but tomorrow they will continue to lie.

The mark of the internet troll, a low grade case of sociopathy.

More like willfully stupid.

Jordan would absolutely torch the modern era. Anyone who says otherwise is only claiming he can't because they are too young to have watched him and don't want to believe someone they didn't have a chance to see was that good. He is the absolute GOAT and would dominate any era.