Arenas on MJ vs Kobe . 36YR OLD MJ as good as Prime Kobe

[And1AllDay]

Dat IQ

[Mr Feeny]

Dat IQ

[3ball]

Since MJ and Vince are about the same height, where their head is in relation to the rim is the truest measure of how high they are actually jumping without considering wingspan and reach.

I can't think of once instance where Vince's head was at the rim - his head was always an a 2-4 inches below the rim.

Otoh, MJ has many instances where his head was at the rim or above the rim, even though there were FAR less camera angles in his day:


http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/73...d3ec665aca.jpg
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https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/i...JUWB-ASvtcj-DJ
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http://thebestten.files.wordpress.co...pg?w=595&h=801
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Also, Jordan had a documented 48" vertical:

Here's an article by Tim Grover where he documented Jordan's vertical at his sports academy... http://www.si.com/edge/2014/10/16/ti...nt-isnt-enough


Here is a study done by researchers at UNC on Jordan's vertical... http://www.jospt.org/doi/pdf/10.2519/jospt.1999.29.1.A1

[3ball]

[COLOR="Green"]I haven't seen ONE picture with Vince's head at the rim[/COLOR]

There are no pictures showing Vince Carter's head at the rim

[OldSchoolBBall]

Where do people get this idea that Carter's body control was anywhere near Jordan's? It's not even close. Before you post some video of VC doing a 360 layup (big deal), realize that many other players - none of whom are even considered to be in the same universe as Jordan body control wise, such as Nique and James Worthy - have also done 360 layups in game. Jordan was far more fluid and graceful than VC in any scenario on the court or in the air. Not even close imo.

[Kblaze8855]

Vince was pretty fluid and graceful homie....






Nobody has a windmill so smooth.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Yes, but imo he has never exhibited the kind of fluidity, control and flexibility needed to make plays like these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMzj74R1I7E#t=0m35s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2UYzr-crMk#t=4m56s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsMLK3iABsY#t=0m51s

I've just seem VC make impressive layups FAR less frequently than Jordan, even when viewed as a percentage of the times they each got to the rim (since MJ got there more to begin with).

[Kblaze8855]

I feel like maybe you picked the wrong time frame on those clips if its supposed to be something Vince cant do. Jordan did things Vince couldnt...mostly because he was quicker...but I dont see anything there. Again...maybe I wasnt seeing what you intended.

But the idividual plays rarely make a point in these things anyway. Ive seen Vince do things Jordan didnt...doesnt mean he couldnt..it just means he didnt.

Two supreme athletes are gonna make spectacular plays nobody else makes over the course of a career. Most of them...plays they wont repeat themselves.

Rare is it anything that literally nobody else could do.

Some guys just move...unusually. Like Derrick Rose.

You wont match it exactly...but its not a "Nobody in the world can...." thing. Its just him being unique and making plays that wont be repeated due to the unpredictability of the game. Like most great players.

Vince Carter moved like gumby at times, probably had a legit 45 inch vertical on the move, and had huge hands to control the ball easily. Im not gonna say he CANT do a lot of things ive never seen him do just like I wont say it of MJ.

Both of them were capable of a lot of things that never went down exactly the way someone else did it.

[jstern]

I feel like maybe you picked the wrong time frame on those clips if its supposed to be something Vince cant do. Jordan did things Vince couldnt...mostly because he was quicker...but I dont see anything there. Again...maybe I wasnt seeing what you intended.

But the idividual plays rarely make a point in these things anyway. Ive seen Vince do things Jordan didnt...doesnt mean he couldnt..it just means he didnt.

Two supreme athletes are gonna make spectacular plays nobody else makes over the course of a career. Most of them...plays they wont repeat themselves.

Rare is it anything that literally nobody else could do.

Some guys just move...unusually. Like Derrick Rose.

You wont match it exactly...but its not a "Nobody in the world can...." thing. Its just him being unique and making plays that wont be repeated due to the unpredictability of the game. Like most great players.

Vince Carter moved like gumby at times, probably had a legit 45 inch vertical on the move, and had huge hands to control the ball easily. Im not gonna say he CANT do a lot of things ive never seen him do just like I wont say it of MJ.

Both of them were capable of a lot of things that never went down exactly the way someone else did it.

Smart post. Especially about the fact that there are plays/performances
that the athlete will never repeat again. I always felt that that's a point that people don't understand intuitively.

[Kblaze8855]

Thats always stood out to me as well. Someone posts a clip and says "Nobody else could do this...." when the person in question had never done it before themselves and never did it again with tens of thousands of chances.

Everyone does a hundred things they wont ever do again and nobody else will exactly match.

Unless you add some qualifiers like "Who else of this size..." that wipes out 99.9% of the people on Earth its hard to say nobody else possibly could.

They just wont....like the person who did it the first time wont do it again either.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Then why does VC have only a fraction of the impressive layups/finishes that Jordan does, even if you just look at it as a percentage of the times they got the the rim? I guess you can say he's not as creative (as distinct from actual body control)? I dunno...

[Kblaze8855]

And how exactly would you figure out that ratio?

Jordan has a lot more impressive layups because he went to the basket at almost every chance for years. There is no way to find an impressive layup to drives ratio.

If you can feel free to explain it.

Is someone tracking impressive layups somewhere?

[Kblaze8855]

And yes I would say that being creative is part of it as well.

If Jordan is a quicker thinker than someone else he might do something in a situation they wouldnt. But the issue of body control.....being fluid in the air....being able to leap well enough?

That would show in if the person couldnt do it if shown it and asked. And there is little either of them have done....I doubt the other could...if they were told to do that move.

VC may not have done the hand switching layup like Jordan in 91. I have no doubt he could if you asked him to go do it.

Jordan may not have jumped over a 7 footer...but I can think of a couple he almost jumped over. Put one in the way and ask him to do it....im sure he could.

He didnt....but I dont think its accurate to say he couldnt. Not about him and not about VC.

You cant prove it...but you cant prove much when you really think about it.

I cant prove Jordan could do a number of things I have no doubt he could.

[DCL]

Dat IQ

he has made worse gameplay decisions than that

[Kblaze8855]

Kobe is far from a dumb basketball player. Id say Kobe is damn near a basketball genius. He took some bad shots....as did every great player. Great players dont become great without the confidence that makes them take those shots at times.

How many times has Lebron jab stepped for 8 seconds then taken a contested 25 footer?

We pretending thats good basketball just because it goes it at times?