Where do you guys typically rate Scottie Pippen as a player?

[97 bulls]

That's the only thing that gets me. Would you say that MJ in 87 was as equal as Pippen was in 95? Or Pippen was a little bit better and knew how impact the game better? What about Curry right now? Because I feel like that's the same thing for Wade in this case.

Jordan was averaging almost 40 ppg. And at that stage, the way he played, I wouldn't take him over 95 Pippen. Hed fill the seats. I think Pippen would net better results. Jordan hadn't quite figured it out yet. He was a one man show. Theres a reason Chuck Daly said Pippen was the second most important players on the 92 Dream Team. I dont think Pippen was a stats guy bro. He was a winner. Some guys get exposed when they're thrown in the spotlight. Think about James Worthy, Kevin McHale, Draymond Green. What happened to them when they were put out on an island? Their teams were a joke. That's didnt happen with Pippen.

It's not the first time a player, who is great, that had a crappy team. Like that player would do numbers, and the eye test says he is one of the best players in the league, but the team just ain't cutting it. Sometimes it's the chemistry. Sometimes it's the coach not figuring out how to make it work.

Right. That's why I say context is key. Guys like Westbrook and Harden can fill a stat sheet, but to no avail. I think they're more enamored with numbers than wins.

Put it like this. If Pippen wanted to, he couldve went out and tried to score 25-26 ppg on say 45%. But the Bulls DONT WIN 55 GAMES. I honestly feel if we dudnt keep track of stats, Pippen would be ranked a lot higher.

He doesn't have to finish higher in the MVP voting to be the better player. D.Rose has a mvp over D-Wade, but I don't think he is a better player. He wasn't the better player that year. He has a mvp over Dwight Howard, but he was never the better player imo. He wasn't a better player than LeBron, Wade, Kobe, D.Howard, KD, Dirk and etc that year. It depends on the competition at the time, the performances, and the storylines.

At that time? Rose was right there with those guys. And he hot results. He was winning. But I do agree winning an MVP one year doesnt mean said player is the best player. But that's not the point. I comparing how they stacked up to the other greats of their respective eras.

And they played with different players. So, it's really tough. There is a lot of context involved in it.

Right. Context matters. But somehow these discussions center around offense. It's just not that simple to me.

[Micku]

Jordan was averaging almost 40 ppg. And at that stage, the way he played, I wouldn't take him over 95 Pippen. Hed fill the seats. I think Pippen would net better results. Jordan hadn't quite figured it out yet. He was a one man show. Theres a reason Chuck Daly said Pippen was the second most important players on the 92 Dream Team. I dont think Pippen was a stats guy bro. He was a winner. Some guys get exposed when they're thrown in the spotlight. Think about James Worthy, Kevin McHale, Draymond Green. What happened to them when they were put out on an island? Their teams were a joke. That's didnt happen with Pippen.

Right. That's why I say context is key. Guys like Westbrook and Harden can fill a stat sheet, but to no avail. I think they're more enamored with numbers than wins.

And that's the most interesting thing. You wouldn't Jordan over Pippen, even when he was averaging almost 40 ppg. And that's it. That's difference between us.

While you could be right that Jordan haven't figured it out yet, but it could also be his team. Not to say he didn't get better at making his teammates better or playing a better team ball. He got better the following year. And he got better with in the championship run. I think it's a combination of things. 1. The team was trash. 2. Not the right fit. 3. Coaching haven't figured out how to max the output. 4. Different competition.

Like many ppl would say he haven't figured it out how to play with the team, right? Unlike Magic and Bird. But it's a lot easier to make Kareem better or Credrix Maxwell better than Oakley at the time.

It's very similar to what Curry is doing now. Curry knows what it takes to win. He's been there. Been on teams where he is major anchor offensively. Still is. Averaging basically the same numbers as his mvp season. Still having amazing offensive capability. But his team suck.

I'm definitely under the impression that just because a player win, it doesn't mean that that player is better than the other player. It's all about the combination of things that contribute. From the coaching, the teammates that fit, chemistry, etc. Certain star players is easier to build around, others need a certain structure, others needs a certain system. Just how we see Mike D'antoni with the Lakers. He had so much talent, but he didn't have the right personal. But with the Rockets, he was hanging with the Warriors with KD.

Steve Kerr used Curry much better than Mark Jackson used him. Thus creating the GSW era.

And Pippen was probably the second most important player in Chuck Daly eyes. But that doesn't he is the second best player or whatever. Spo and LeBron I think said Bosh was their most important piece during their time with the Heat. That don't mean he was their most valuable player, obviously. You can find some articles that would say stuff like Pau Gasol being the most important piece during the Lakers run in the 08-10. But he isn't the best player.

I do agree that with those guys that you mention. But it's probably not fair to Worthy tho. He wasn't the same player. Mchale either, but I totally see what you mean. Pippen was at the right age, 28-29 years old. That's when players, especially at the time, usually hit their prime/peak. It's usually around 27-30. Worthy was 30 coming off that injury. While it does say that he isn't as good without Magic, the lakers actually played ok in 92. They didn't have Divac most of the year. They reached to 29-19 at one point but then went on a crazy losing streak. Worthy suffered an knee injury that ended his season and pretty much his career. Like he still played for a couple of seasons, but he wasn't nearly as good.

I can't really say if Harden and Westbrook love their numbers more than winning, but I don't think they have the obsession of Kobe/MJ tho. We'll probably sing a different tune if they do win, even if they join a superteam.

Put it like this. If Pippen wanted to, he couldve went out and tried to score 25-26 ppg on say 45%. But the Bulls DONT WIN 55 GAMES. I honestly feel if we dudnt keep track of stats, Pippen would be ranked a lot higher.

Hahahaah! Whoooo knows man. I don't think this is a good hot take. Because you potentially say that about a bunch of players. Lebron could average, he said he could, but didn't most of the time. Bird could average more. KD, Magic. Etc, etc, etc. I think while it's true that sometimes doing more isn't good. We saw that with Wilt. We saw that MJ to some extent. Seen it with Kobe. KD.

And it's true that players could potentially do more. But I would say that you could do that and still manage to win. As shown obviously. MJ did it. He carried that 88 and 89 team by scoring, play making and being their best defender. I would say Pippen couldn't figure out how to do it.

But I don't want what that means about i we didn't keep track of stats, Pippen would be ranked a lot higher. Hahaha! What does that mean? Like we won't be able to keep track of the scoring? How many pts Pippen had? If we just look at the eye test? You would get different results, but ppl would still say a bunch players are better when they actually aren't. Stats are part of the game.

But, there is definitely true to impacting the game and the stats don't show it.

At that time? Rose was right there with those guys. And he hot results. He was winning. But I do agree winning an MVP one year doesnt mean said player is the best player. But that's not the point. I comparing how they stacked up to the other greats of their respective eras.

Right. Context matters. But somehow these discussions center around offense. It's just not that simple to me.

I personally disagree about that. I don't think Rose was with LeBron or Wade's lvl of play. Like I never looked at him as being the best player. But that's just me. His team won a lot during the regular season, so that's about it.

And I know you are comparing how they stacked up to the other greats of their respective eras, right? But even then, it depends on what you are trying to say. You mentioned that Wade never finished higher than Pip in the voting, right? But so what? Even when comparison across eras, it's a moot point of who is the better player. But more who is the most accomplish player, even then I don't know if it matters that much. As you have players who didn't win chips or didn't win as much mvps, but still rank higher than another said player.

Willis Reed won more mvps and won a chip over Barkley or Karl Malone. But he almost never rank over them from the list I see. He isn't even rank over Oscar Robinson or Jerry West in his own era. Dave Cowens is the same way. You don't even have to go that far. We talk Steve Nash. Or even cp3 who had second place mvp voting over Wade, but you'll hardly see anyone placing him over Wade in all time list.

I don't mind to say mvps don't matter tho. MVPs are definitely a quality reward. But it doesn't express the better player or the better career. Like you would mention Wade never surpass in MVP in voting, yet he didn't surpass CP3 either. Or Steve Nash, obviously. But he was the better player. And some cases, ppl would say he had the better career.

You're right about the emphasis on offense tho. But I see it when it comes to Wade. Like anytime you are approaching the lvl of MJ, it's always a big deal because that's historic lvls. It means you are really damn good. But we just disagree on it. But like I said before, I don't mind if anyone places Pippen over Wade. Although it should tiers instead. I just had to jump in due to the reasoning. And I don't think just cuz you won more with a certain team it means you are a better player.

[97 bulls]

And that's the most interesting thing. You wouldn't Jordan over Pippen, even when he was averaging almost 40 ppg. And that's it. That's difference between us.
While you could be right that Jordan haven't figured it out yet, but it could also be his team. Not to say he didn't get better at making his teammates better or playing a better team ball. He got better the following year. And he got better with in the championship run. I think it's a combination of things. 1. The team was trash. 2. Not the right fit. 3. Coaching haven't figured out how to max the output. 4. Different competition.
ULike many ppl would say he haven't figured it out how to play with the team, right? Unlike Magic and Bird. But it's a lot easier to make Kareem better or Credrix Maxwell better than Oakley at the time.

Ok. So apply the same logic to Pippen. Hes the lesser player right? I mean, were the Bulls supposed to win a Championship in 94? Why doesnt he get slack since he didnt have the best players on his team? Again. Jordan dropped almost 40ppg and the Bulls were trash right? But you guys are not prepared to give Pippen the same leigh way. Why? Simple because his scoring wasnt on par. BUT THAT WASNT HIS GAME!!!! Duncan wasnt a big time scorer. Thats why I say it's about IMPACT. The fact is that every player that won, won because they had the most talent. And that elevates them above other players in ranking. I dont neccesarily disagree, but that's not a cut and dry one size fit all assessment.

It's very similar to what Curry is doing now. Curry knows what it takes to win. He's been there. Been on teams where he is major anchor offensively. Still is. Averaging basically the same numbers as his mvp season. Still having amazing offensive capability. But his team suck.

I'm definitely under the impression that just because a player win, it doesn't mean that that player is better than the other player. It's all about the combination of things that contribute. From the coaching, the teammates that fit, chemistry, etc. Certain star players is easier to build around, others need a certain structure, others needs a certain system. Just how we see Mike D'antoni with the Lakers. He had so much talent, but he didn't have the right personal. But with the Rockets, he was hanging with the Warriors with KD.

Steve Kerr used Curry much better than Mark Jackson used him. Thus creating the GSW era.

And Pippen was probably the second most important player in Chuck Daly eyes. But that doesn't he is the second best player or whatever. Spo and LeBron I think said Bosh was their most important piece during their time with the Heat. That don't mean he was their most valuable player, obviously. You can find some articles that would say stuff like Pau Gasol being the most important piece during the Lakers run in the 08-10. But he isn't the best player.

Lol. Bro. Think about what you said. At what point in any instance would you take the best of something over the most important? Generally speaking, shouldnt your best player and most important player be synonymous with each other? Or perhaps you're proving my point. That your argument is a flawed logic. You're dingaling might be the best part of your body, but is it the most important?Think about what Daly said. He said most important PLAYER. Not defender, or scorer, or rebounder, PLAYER.

I do agree that with those guys that you mention. But it's probably not fair to Worthy tho. He wasn't the same player. Mchale either, but I totally see what you mean. Pippen was at the right age, 28-29 years old. That's when players, especially at the time, usually hit their prime/peak. It's usually around 27-30. Worthy was 30 coming off that injury. While it does say that he isn't as good without Magic, the lakers actually played ok in 92. They didn't have Divac most of the year. They reached to 29-19 at one point but then went on a crazy losing streak. Worthy suffered an knee injury that ended his season and pretty much his career. Like he still played for a couple of seasons, but he wasn't nearly as good.

The Lakers were 28-26 in the games Worthy played in. McHale put up the same numbers he normally did. And neither were old. And both Worthy and McHale had a damn good teams to boot. You dont see the blatant double standard here? And they were old lol.

I can't really say if Harden and Westbrook love their numbers more than winning, but I don't think they have the obsession of Kobe/MJ tho.

Theres video after video on YouTube exposing Westbrook as a numbers guy. Harden is a shitty defender. He doesnt care about it. That's why neither of those guys have a Championship.

We'll probably sing a different tune if they do win, even if they join a superteam.

Maybe you will but I wont.
I disagree. Those guys had teams built around their talents. The offense ran through them, guys set picks and screens to get them open.

Pippen never had the chance bro. Pippen inherited a team that was built around Jordan. He didnt have a team built around him and then 10 years of opportunities to get it right one time. Lol


I'm not saying they shouldnt be a part of the game. I'm saying they don't tell the whole story. And the eye test and being unbiased is the most important. One can make the argument that Dwight Howard shouldve got more touches because he shot 60% from the field. But the eye test( actually watching the game shows that he has a hard time scoring if it's not on a rebound and put back or a lob for a dunk or a pock and roll.

Rose was just entering his prime bro. The other guys you mentioned were seasoned vets. He was well on his way.

I mentioned that to show their careers were eerily similar. But their styles are totally different.

Again, it's not that linear. Circumstances are why Nash won the MVP. Stoudemire got hurt, the Suns still competed at a high level. Normally, it's the best player on the top 2 or 3 teams.

Here we go on the merry-go-round again. Lol. What metric are you using that made Wade better? Scoring right? Please don't tell me because of that Finals MVP. Not after what you just posted about how MVPs arent the end all be all. Just say you pick Wade because you value scoring.

[BigShotBob]

Never seen a Pippen stan before. First time for everything. Glad literally no one else in the world would argue Pippen over Wade.

[8Ball]

Never seen a Pippen stan before. First time for everything. Glad literally no one else in the world would argue Pippen over Wade.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong (Donald Trump gif).

The ESPN analytical / reporter group puts Pippen ahead of Wade all time. Pippen is #21, 4 places higher than Wade.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...-all-nos-40-11

Michael Jordan's greatness made many think of Pippen as an all-time great sidekick. But Pippen is a legend in his own right as one of the most versatile players the NBA has ever seen. With his 6-8 height and endless wingspan, Pippen made the All-Defensive first team eight times while stifling some of the NBA's greatest stars. When Jordan left to play baseball in 1993-94, Pippen averaged 22 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists and 2.9 steals while leading the Bulls to a 55-win season before losing to the Knicks in the East semifinals. Pippen earned six rings and made the playoffs 16 straight times, a streak that didn't end until his final season.
-- Youngmisuk

[mehyaM24]

The stats are gonna be skewed because Wade played in an era where it was easier for perimeter players to score. Why cant you admit that? Everything is gonna be inflated. If we both have the same amount of possessions but nobody is defending me but you're being defended, you pts per possessions are gonna be better. And mind you, Wade is flat out a better scorer than Pippen.



Wade never finished higher than Pip in MVP voting, Pippen finished higher than Wade in DPOY award. Pippen played in a system that wasnt conducive to him having big scoring or assists numbers. The Triangle was designed to get the ball to everbody. And Pippen was the facilitator. He was the psuedo PG of the Bulls offense.

90%!!!! NINETY PERCENT!!!!! NINE ZERO!!!!! That's how big of an increase Wade had in FT attempts. And the Mavs were the 11th ranked defense that year. The refs balled out. And you know it because you backhanded admit that the 06 Finals was controversial.

in 06, league ORTG and DRTG were lower than in 95. so while i agree, wade played with MORE perimeter-friendly rules, it didn't matter as much. because team defense was roughly the same - and statistically arguably better. so yet again wade's numbers are more impressive.

and no, pippen never finished "higher" in MVP voting. 3rd was the best each of them placed. in 94 pippen had 380 MVP points, while 09 wade had 680. wade also finished with more MVP shares - so ya, you are dead wrong here. to top that off, wade also had more all-nba teams. using the triangle as an excuse doesn't work because pippen benefits from it too. he never won anything without it and played second fiddle to jordan. the triangle produced championships and championships are the MAIN reason pippen gets the nod all-time. but again, wade has more all-nba teams, higher mvp voting, better numbers BOTH raw & advanced, and led a team to a ring - the better player is obviously wade.

offensively, wade carried a big burden that finals - so increased freethrows checkout. he shot a lot of them, yes, but most were justified. if you disagree with that POINT THE FOULS OUT. until then this is just another excuse from you.

[97 bulls]

in 06, league ORTG and DRTG were lower than in 95. so while i agree, wade played with MORE perimeter-friendly rules, it didn't matter as much. because team defense was roughly the same - and statistically arguably better. so yet again wade's numbers are more impressive.

and no, pippen never finished "higher" in MVP voting. 3rd was the best each of them placed. in 94 pippen had 380 MVP points, while 09 wade had 680. wade also finished with more MVP shares - so ya, you are dead wrong here. to top that off, wade also had more all-nba teams. using the triangle as an excuse doesn't work because pippen benefits from it too. he never won anything without it and played second fiddle to jordan. the triangle produced championships and championships are the MAIN reason pippen gets the nod all-time. but again, wade has more all-nba teams, higher mvp voting, better numbers BOTH raw & advanced, and led a team to a ring - the better player is obviously wade.

offensively, wade carried a big burden that finals - so increased freethrows checkout. he shot a lot of them, yes, but most were justified. if you disagree with that POINT THE FOULS OUT. until then this is just another excuse from you.

Semantics Mayhem. You're arguing petty stuff. Olajuwan turned in one of the best seasons of an NBA player. Off course hes gonna get more votes. Lol. And I never said Pip finished higher in MVP. I said he finish higher in DPOY.

The triangle was a benefit to winning. But it did take Pippen away from of his strengths.

Again bro. I think you just want to argue here. You'd be the rare few that felt all the calls Wade got were typical foul calls. Like I said earlier, they were ticky tack. And Dallas wasnt a bad defensive team. Josh Howard was actually a good defender. I went back and looked. Wade 06 Finals FT talley lands him second Alltime. And most of the top 10 were guys that played in the 60s. When the league was taking roughly 30% more shots. Jordan landed at number 15 and he was roughly 20fts less. Snce 2000 Wase has shot the most FTs in a Finals series. Shaq was 2nd and he got INTENTIONALLY FOULED. And hes a center. Imagine that. A team intentionally fouled a guy and Wade still shot more Fts than him. SMDH

The problem isnt so much him shooting the FTs because he was being fouled. It was the inconsistency. I said earlier, you can call a foul on every play. Like in the NFL, you can call a hold on ever play. The Refs did an atrocious job in that finals. Give Dallas the same calls like Wade got (which they definitely couldve have) the Heat dont win the Finals. Why hasnt Wade ever been able to repeat that many fouls ever? He sure as hell cried like a bitch to try to repeat it.

You dont get to say I'm making excuses when you've excused every failure of Waded career. He was injured, his team wasnt good, Lebron James played bad, I swear you guys with your double standards.

[mehyaM24]

Semantics Mayhem. You're arguing petty stuff. Olajuwan turned in one of the best seasons of an NBA player. Off course hes gonna get more votes. Lol. And I never said Pip finished higher in MVP. I said he finish higher in DPOY.

The triangle was a benefit to winning. But it did take Pippen away from of his strengths.

Again bro. I think you just want to argue here. You'd be the rare few that felt all the calls Wade got were typical foul calls. Like I said earlier, they were ticky tack. And Dallas wasnt a bad defensive team. Josh Howard was actually a good defender. I went back and looked. Wade 06 Finals FT talley lands him second Alltime. And most of the top 10 were guys that played in the 60s. When the league was taking roughly 30% more shots. Jordan landed at number 15 and he was roughly 20fts less. Snce 2000 Wase has shot the most FTs in a Finals series. Shaq was 2nd and he got INTENTIONALLY FOULED. And hes a center. Imagine that. A team intentionally fouled a guy and Wade still shot more Fts than him. SMDH

The problem isnt so much him shooting the FTs because he was being fouled. It was the inconsistency. I said earlier, you can call a foul on every play. Like in the NFL, you can call a hold on ever play. The Refs did an atrocious job in that finals. Give Dallas the same calls like Wade got (which they definitely couldve have) the Heat dont win the Finals. Why hasnt Wade ever been able to repeat that many fouls ever? He sure as hell cried like a bitch to try to repeat it.

You dont get to say I'm making excuses when you've excused every failure of Waded career. He was injured, his team wasnt good, Lebron James played bad, I swear you guys with your double standards.

no they're called facts. learn the difference pal. you said wade never finished higher in mvp voting, but technically he did. more mvp points & shares - and using hakeem as a lifeline doesn't work either. wade finished behind prime kobe & lebron (he might've had his BEST statistical year).

like i said, if you have a problem with the calls, the games are on youtube. since you have enough time to go back and forth with everyone, post the time stamps. we want receipts. again, you're hinging your argument on freethrows but fail to mention wade's play from the field. or even his prime play from 2005-2012. wade had better: skills, individual numbers, efficiency, impact (box +/-, value over replacement), more all-nba teams, higher mvp voting and an alpha ring.

nobody is excusing wade's injuries. even when that is accounted for, his peak and prime play is still superior

[Micku]

Ok. So apply the same logic to Pippen. Hes the lesser player right? I mean, were the Bulls supposed to win a Championship in 94? Why doesnt he get slack since he didnt have the best players on his team? Again. Jordan dropped almost 40ppg and the Bulls were trash right? But you guys are not prepared to give Pippen the same leigh way. Why? Simple because his scoring wasnt on par. BUT THAT WASNT HIS GAME!!!! Duncan wasnt a big time scorer. Thats why I say it's about IMPACT. The fact is that every player that won, won because they had the most talent. And that elevates them above other players in ranking. I dont neccesarily disagree, but that's not a cut and dry one size fit all assessment.
.

Yeah, that's what we mean. It's not just scoring. His overall offense isn't on par. Wade is closer to MJ to that. Even Tim Duncan is offensive prowse is better than Pippen. His stats and plus/minus still good enough to match better than like Hakeem or Shaq in some seasons, but you shouldn't compare that really because the teammates were different. And as I said before, even though Hakeem and Shaq were better in their prime/peak, Tim Duncan wasn't far off in the gap of offense in comparison to Wade and Pippen. That stats show it too. And you mention, he's not even the a scorer. His defense was his main thing. And we could use stats for that too, but that does not tell the full story. There are definitely cases where it stats don't tell you how good a player is.

Lol. Bro. Think about what you said. At what point in any instance would you take the best of something over the most important? Generally speaking, shouldnt your best player and most important player be synonymous with each other? Or perhaps you're proving my point. That your argument is a flawed logic. You're dingaling might be the best part of your body, but is it the most important?Think about what Daly said. He said most important PLAYER. Not defender, or scorer, or rebounder, PLAYER.

It should right? That's why I'm tossing what you quoted with Chuck Daly out of the window because look at this:

Erik Spoelstra Is Right: Chris Bosh Is the Miami Heat's Most Important Player

“He is our most important player, and he’s as steady and consistent as he always has been for the last two and a half years."

Still stumped? Here's your final clue, courtesy of Coach Spo:
"He was big under the rim and not just his scoring, but the big plays defensively at the end.”

If LeBron James was your answer, then, well...try again. The laudatory comments here were instead intended for Chris Bosh, and rightfully so.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...portant-player

Now obviously, that ain't true at all. LeBron was always the most important piece. Wade was the second. Or they shared that in 2011.

You can say Chuck Daly was more true than what Spo said or you can say they both right. But I'm pretty confident to say what Spo said ain't true tho. And this happen a few times throughout history. When coaches or players would say "Player b is the most important piece to the team" when Player A is the best player. I think they said that about the Bulls with Noah during the Rose years. Pau Gasol. Maybe Fisher or Kobe during the Shaq/Kobe era. It don't make it true tho. But it's complementing the player saying their efforts ain't going unrecognized. They do the dirty work.

The Lakers were 28-26 in the games Worthy played in. McHale put up the same numbers he normally did. And neither were old. And both Worthy and McHale had a damn good teams to boot. You dont see the blatant double standard here? And they were old lol.

Oh no. Don't get me wrong, I'm not using the old argument like that. I don't like when ppl used that argument against the Bulls when they say the Pistons were old. What I'm saying is that they weren't at their best. Pippen was. It really shows how good Pippen was at the time.

Like Wade. He was a different player at 30 than he was at 27/28. T-Mac is the extreme example. Barkley is another one. But not to say Worthy wasn't good in 92. Pippen was just better than he was in 94 than Worthy 92 version.

[97 bulls]

no they're called facts. learn the difference pal. you said wade never finished higher in mvp voting, but technically he did. more mvp points & shares - and using hakeem as a lifeline doesn't work either. wade finished behind prime kobe & lebron (he might've had his BEST statistical year).

I actually called it semantics. Both finished 3rd in the respective years. If you think Jame and Bryant had better years than Olajuwon an Robinson. So be it. Both Wade and Pippen finished behind them.

like i said, if you have a problem with the calls, the games are on youtube. since you have enough time to go back and forth with everyone, post the time stamps. we want receipts. again, you're hinging your argument on freethrows but fail to mention wade's play from the field. or even his prime play from 2005-2012. wade had better: skills, individual numbers, efficiency, impact (box +/-, value over replacement), more all-nba teams, higher mvp voting and an alpha ring.

Why would I go back and do that? All you’d do is deny it. The facts are for all those stats you mentioned, all that yada, yada, yada yet his teams went nowhere. No impact whatsoever. Pippen accomplished more. If Pip decided to go out and forget winning for the sake of stats, his numbers would be higher too.

nobody is excusing wade's injuries. even when that is accounted for, his peak and prime play is still superior

You not even man enough to admit the 06 Finals was controversial lol

[Micku]

Maybe you will but I wont.
I disagree. Those guys had teams built around their talents. The offense ran through them, guys set picks and screens to get them open.

Pippen never had the chance bro. Pippen inherited a team that was built around Jordan. He didnt have a team built around him and then 10 years of opportunities to get it right one time. Lol


I'm not saying they shouldnt be a part of the game. I'm saying they don't tell the whole story. And the eye test and being unbiased is the most important. One can make the argument that Dwight Howard shouldve got more touches because he shot 60% from the field. But the eye test( actually watching the game shows that he has a hard time scoring if it's not on a rebound and put back or a lob for a dunk or a pock and roll.

Rose was just entering his prime bro. The other guys you mentioned were seasoned vets. He was well on his way.

I mentioned that to show their careers were eerily similar. But their styles are totally different.

Again, it's not that linear. Circumstances are why Nash won the MVP. Stoudemire got hurt, the Suns still competed at a high level. Normally, it's the best player on the top 2 or 3 teams.

Here we go on the merry-go-round again. Lol. What metric are you using that made Wade better? Scoring right? Please don't tell me because of that Finals MVP. Not after what you just posted about how MVPs arent the end all be all. Just say you pick Wade because you value scoring.

And y'see all that is subjective.

Like the Harden ranking, right? It's similar to what KD did, although KD was was worse. Yet you'll constantly KD above a bunch of players in the goat ranking. Probably cuz he won a ring and the probably a bit of the eye test too. If Harden wins a ring, who knows what ppl would say. It depends on his performance. And I'm not talking myself either, cuz I don't think ppl should be rank like that.

And it's the same thing with the eye test. A person can be unbias about it and have reasoning, but have different opinions. Like how we are having. You'll get that every basketball year. You get that coaches, b-ball players, analysis, casual fans, hardcore fans like us that have different opinions. Unfortunately we probably won't ever be able to prove our prediction or opinions sometimes across eras like and have to settle for debate or play in 2k. But 2k be trippin.

With Rose, right? Yeah he was entering his prime, but he wasn't as good as a few other players were to me. As I said, not as good KD, LeBron, Wade, Howard, Dirk, or Kobe. He still got mvp, which he deserved. But it doesn't stop that wasn't the best player.

And of course I value scoring. But if I value scoring so much I would say Mitch Richmond is better than Pippen. Hahah. Or Wilkins is better than Patrick Ewing or Magic or something. If I valued it that much, I would really try to trigger you say Beal right now is better than Pippen ever was. But he isn't. It's not just about scoring. But Wade was better overall offensively, how he scored and hitting those MJ lvls. And if you hit, you are pretty good. Wade wasn't bad defensively either. His scoring and offensive output was really really good. One of the best ever.

But I'm not really debating that Pippen>Wade or Wade>Pippen as much I want to point out to you that just because a player wins, it doesn't necessary mean that they are better player all the time. As I said before, Jimmy Butler beat Giannis. But he isn't a better player. And Jimmy Butler is definitely one of those guys where the stats don't tell the full story of his impact, although his stats are solid. CP3 is also one of those guys. And like how the Pistons 04 beat the Lakers 04. None of the guys in the Pistons were better than Shaq/Kobe. With the bad boys pistons, none of the guys were better than MJ 88-90 when he was losing to them. He was probably the best player in the league.

But of course this is all within context and definitely impact matters. Bird changed the Celts, Magic changed the Lakers, cp3 changed places whatever he goes, Billiups changed Denver that one year, Duncan changed the Spurs. And Pippen is definitely one of those dudes were could impact the game in multiple ways like you said. He never had a team of his own, at least in a long period of time and given the right construction, could possibly win a chip or be a championship contender.


Edit:

Another thing about rankings and how subjective it is, players would have Kobe was high as number 2 more often than the fans and analysis, right? And what makes us and analysis more right than the players who actually played the game at that high lvl? And even coaches. And even LeBron's top 3 is different most. He has MJ, Bird and Dr. J. Barkley is differnt. Shaq is different. Kenny is different. Paul Pierce, T-Mac, etc, etc. Coaches and whatever. Even the guy at thinking basketball, who probably watch more basketball than most ppl here, has a different ranking. And also thinks that Wade peaks is one of the best ever. What makes you more right than him? Same thing with the players, who knows more in depth than any of us?

Basically what I'm saying is that even if you applied saying no bias involved, but are obviously gonn'a have different opinions about it. There's no such thing as a objective list. You can say what is the most consensus list, probably. But it don't make it right.

[mehyaM24]

I actually called it semantics. Both finished 3rd in the respective years. If you think Jame and Bryant had better years than Olajuwon an Robinson. So be it. Both Wade and Pippen finished behind them.

Why would I go back and do that? All you’d do is deny it. The facts are for all those stats you mentioned, all that yada, yada, yada yet his teams went nowhere. No impact whatsoever. Pippen accomplished more. If Pip decided to go out and forget winning for the sake of stats, his numbers would be higher too.

right, but they're actually called FACTS. once again.. wade actually finished higher because of votes and shares. i think lebron is better than hakeem btw, and so does most of the world.

you can't say the "numbers mean nothing" because then 94 & 95 mean nothing for pippen. sorry dude, reality doesn't work that way. rambling on about "cheap officiating" yet you've done nothing to back it up. i've seen the series multiple times. and know what's what. the calls rewarded to wade were analyzed before, right here on ISH. and most came to the conclusion they were legit. but like i said, if you feel differently, post your proof.

You not even man enough to admit the 06 Finals was controversial

ok pippen groupie lol. still waiting on those receipts!

[97 bulls]

right, but they're actually called FACTS. once again.. wade actually finished higher because of votes and shares. i think lebron is better than hakeem btw, and so does most of the world.

Do you even know what semantics means? I never said you were wrong. I'm saying its insignificant. They both finished 3rd. That's all I'm saying. That's a fact. I'm not talking about their careers, I'm talking about one particular season. 94 and 10.

you can't say the "numbers mean nothing" because then 94 & 95 mean nothing for pippen. sorry dude, reality doesn't work that way. rambling on about "cheap officiating" yet you've done nothing to back it up. i've seen the series multiple times. and know what's what. the calls rewarded to wade were analyzed before, right here on ISH. and most came to the conclusion they were legit. but like i said, if you feel differently, post your proof.

Again. I'm not saying there were a bunch of phantom calls. They were overly quick whistles. And theres been studies proving it. That's why you wont admit that the series is mired in controversy.

ok pippen groupie lol. still waiting on those receipts!

Bro. You in here just like me. Lol. You in here windmilling for a dude that garnered the nickname "D-Whistle" lol. As if I'm making this stuff up.

[97 bulls]

You want more facts? Look at how Wade performed when he didnt have Shaq or James

".507 (35–34): HEAT’s record during the 6 seasons with Shaq and LeBron (excluding ‘07–08 ) when either of those two was hurt yet Wade played

.726 (238–90): HEAT’s record when both Wade and either Shaq or LeBron suited played — two superstars playing at once

.763 (45–14): HEAT’s record when Wade sat with an injury yet Shaq or LeBron played

If you look at their playoff success without Shaq or LeBron, they’ve never won a damn thing. Even if you look at that terrible ‘07–08 season when Shaq was traded, Miami was only 4–11 with both Wade and Shaq, yet Wade without Shaq got ugly, going 6–30."

Lol. Is this your King???? Are you friggn kidding me? We already know what Pippen did without Jordan. I dont want to show you Pips record without MJ cuz I'd be embarrased for you.

Now let's see you try to justify these FACTS with your silly +/- nonsense. Like I said EMPTY STATS!!!!! Shut your ISH account down.

[72-10]

Yea, and Wade had 8 All-NBA selections to Pippen's 7. Pippen had one more 1st team selection, but a lot of this is due to Wade's injuries which limited his games played.

Having said that, it was a joke in 1998 when they gave Pippen All-NBA honors having played just half the season. It should have gone to KG or Walker.

grizzled veteran Pippen was so superb in the second half of the season that actually, yes, he should have been All-NBA, given that it was third team, he was doing everything well then and it was one of his finest moments

Had Pippen played the full season, it would have been his best.