My definitive clutch discussion of Bran, Kobe, Curry, Jordan, etc

[sundizz]

Arbitrary Water is right - Lebron James in general has been a pretty good clutch performer. I agree with that. That is why it annoys me that people think this last season of his was somehow "great or amazing". It sucked. He was quite awful I thought by the eye test (and the numbers also show it).

If you look at Bron in comparison to Kobe and Wade (his only true competition in this era/data available) he has done far better when the conditions are:

5 minutes left or less
4th quarter or OT
shot to tie or take the lead

However, that is why I posted those advanced stats. They take into account all game events (not just shots). Being clutch is way different than simply making shots. For example, I was watching a Kobe vs. Durant video the other day of the 2010 G6 closing game. Kobe was the one that got a huge huge defensive rebound in traffic to give them the chance to win the game and close out the series.

These stats aren't the end all be all. There is stuff like "confidence" that is a real thing. Anyone that plays ball knows. It is hard to say, without being on the floor with these players, which one makes you confident in the ability to win a basketball game.

Out of all bball games I've seen in the playoffs, to this day, Bron's 48 point explosion was the greatest thing I've seen. However, from continued watching I always felt the pure confidence Kobe had inspired teammates a little bit better than the way Bron acts. I truly believe that is what made Pau great - he had all the tools, but was too much in his head (like most smart people). Kobe gave him that I don't give an eff attitude to become a champ. He did the same with scrubs like Kwame Brown, Jordan Farmar, Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, etc.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LeBron clutch gawd blah blah

If you had basic comprehension skills, you would have used OP's criteria to begin with, and not "shots to take the lead" or mere FG's to gauge impact.

What I "applauded" were Kobe, Dirk and MJ's percentages of impact estimated. What I laughed at were LeBron's figures in 2015...again not FG's made or attempted, or his stats from 2004-2014.

Do I need to put you in timeout again, Arby?

[ArbitraryWater]

Being clutch actually is ALOT about making shots... whatever isolated events you're talking about (a rebound? really?) it doesn't bridge the gap of the facual events, I want you to admit that... hell, its not just about making shots? In 2013 LeBron averaged a damn triple double per 48 minutes in the clutch...

[ArbitraryWater]

If you had basic comprehension skills, you would have used OP's criteria to begin with, and not "shots to take the lead" or mere FG's to gauge impact.

What I applauded were Kobe, Dirk and MJ's percentages of impact estimated...again not FG's made or attempted.

Do I need to put you in timeout again, Arby?

I honestly thought you'd have enough pride to accept that L... this isn't about OP's criteria, this is about the criteria that makes sense... the traditional ones I posted. How do you dig his criteria, at the same time dislike stuff like win-shares or not because it does the same things (account for team performance), then ask me to do just what you wanted, and really respond with this.... for an adult this is quite immature.

Hey, I didn't invent those stats, you're trying to shoot the messenger.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I honestly thought you'd have enough pride to accept that L... this isn't about OP's criteria, this is about the criteria that makes sense... the traditional ones I posted. How do you dig his criteria, at the same time dislike stuff like win-shares or not because it does the same things (account for team performance), then ask me to do just what you wanted, and really respond with this.... for an adult this is quite immature.

Hey, I didn't invent those stats, you're trying to shoot the messenger.

But I had to correct you, and make you post another chart.

There's no second chances in this. You had your shot...and came up short. Sort of like LeBron's 2/6 campaign.

[ArbitraryWater]

No matter the amount of factual and appropriate data, I can't change your beliefs You have your mind set on this and won't back off of that thought. Maybe next time.

[Magic 32]

I honestly thought you'd have enough pride to accept that L

I think we had all hoped for this.

But Lebron stans only took a week off and then started to waste another summer.

Sad really.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm glad that you admitted you used your own criteria...after seeing OP expose LeBron's horrid 2015 season.

It was a good effort, Martin. Really it was.

[ArbitraryWater]

How many times are you gonna try to end this convo? You ain't folling no one with this 'calm and collected doe' attitude.. I have you on such a string that you spent so much thought into your post that you posted this

http://i.gyazo.com/25caacdbff507e3f14a75ab2fefa4572.png

put the Martin in there, and then backtrack 2 minutes afterwards and edit it for a 2nd time

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How many times are you gonna try to end this convo? You ain't folling no one with this 'calm and collected doe' attitude.. I have you on such a string that you spent so much thought into your post that you posted this

http://i.gyazo.com/25caacdbff507e3f14a75ab2fefa4572.png

put the Martin in there, and then backtrack 2 minutes afterwards and edit it for a 2nd time

Aww martin took a screen cap of my double post. Hang it up on your wall somewhere. You deserved it.

BTW, impact estimated =/= field goals made and attempted

I hope that you can discern the difference in the future

[sundizz]

I honestly thought you'd have enough pride to accept that L... this isn't about OP's criteria, this is about the criteria that makes sense... the traditional ones I posted. How do you dig his criteria, at the same time dislike stuff like win-shares or not because it does the same things (account for team performance), then ask me to do just what you wanted, and really respond with this.... for an adult this is quite immature.

Hey, I didn't invent those stats, you're trying to shoot the messenger.

You are looking at these stats in a vacuum though.

Why do we not take into account that for the criteria you used (+-5, 4th quarter, 5 mins) that Lebron James was assisted on 23% (25/108) of his shots while Kobe was only assisted on 14% (13/91) of the makes??

There is so much more to what goes in a basketball game. You must must must realize that after watching these last playoffs that teams truly are not that afraid of a Lebron James jump shot. He very likely took much easier shots because of the sort of coverage that he faces. Teams dare him to shoot the jumper in big moments. It's not a knock of his efficiency in making it, but to compare them without context doesn't make any sort of sense.

If this is how we are going to compare players why not use Ray Allen. He gets to have superstars/perpetrators do the work of attracting defenders and he gets a clean look at a shot. Does that necessarily make him more clutch than these guys/better? No, it means that he is played differently, and is taking advantage when he can. If he had to play the superstar role and have that sort of coverage his ability would drop a lot.

That is why it is important to use data that takes into account more than just the shot. Clutch is not just making a shot. If Pau Gasol gets an offensive rebound and easy put back because Kobe gets doubled on a 13 foot fadeaway there is no statistic for it, but we all know what happened there. Same with TT - he is better cuz of the attention Bron gets. Data that tries to capsulate all those sort of tangential events gives us a clearer picture.

[branslowski]

Kobe been Clutch...Ice Water in the Veins is what Doug Collins, Kerr, Bird, and all the Legends and commentators
say. I didn't really even need Ops Facts to know this...Eye Ball Test

By the Way, Kobe has the Most Game-Winners All-Time aswell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnHyhCYOgTI

All 36 Game-Winners, straight up Clutch God

[ArbitraryWater]

You are looking at these stats in a vacuum though.

Why do we not take into account that for the criteria you used (+-5, 4th quarter, 5 mins) that Lebron James was assisted on 23% (25/108) of his shots while Kobe was only assisted on 14% (13/91) of the makes??

There is so much more to what goes in a basketball game. You must must must realize that after watching these last playoffs that teams truly are not that afraid of a Lebron James jump shot. He very likely took much easier shots because of the sort of coverage that he faces. Teams dare him to shoot the jumper in big moments. It's not a knock of his efficiency in making it, but to compare them without context doesn't make any sort of sense.

If this is how we are going to compare players why not use Ray Allen. He gets to have superstars/perpetrators do the work of attracting defenders and he gets a clean look at a shot. Does that necessarily make him more clutch than these guys/better? No, it means that he is played differently, and is taking advantage when he can. If he had to play the superstar role and have that sort of coverage his ability would drop a lot.

That is why it is important to use data that takes into account more than just the shot. Clutch is not just making a shot. If Pau Gasol gets an offensive rebound and easy put back because Kobe gets doubled on a 13 foot fadeaway there is no statistic for it, but we all know what happened there. Same with TT - he is better cuz of the attention Bron gets. Data that tries to capsulate all those sort of tangential events gives us a clearer picture.

no doubt.. lets not act like your stats are any more indicative of whats truly happening out there...

Kobe absolutely bails defenses out... you're smart enough to see this. Its his trigger happy attitude that makes it easier to shut him down, as defenses can prepare for whats coming. Thats also the biggest difference between Kobe and MJ, Kobe dances and puts these flashy moves, but the defender isnt going anywhere, ends up right in his grill on the shot.. where as MJ does one little subtle shake and bam, he has himself a shot. He can go to this in the clutch alot more frequently...
where as LeBron quite obviously sticks out as almost an exception, when we compare last second shots its very rare for an Individual, where the opponent KNOWS he's gonna shoot it, can end up with a shot as often as he can and HAS in the past... thats his advantage, the other one is his passing, threat out of double teams.

If you take a look at the Cavaliers' clutch stats from 2009 and 2010, even the Miami ones, LeBron has had those teams at the top of 4th quarter ranks for 6 straight seasons (2009-2014), thats elite.

Take from that what we know, and whatever you're trying to add here for Kobe, with "instilling attitude into his teammates"..

Appreciating the conversation though, rare these days on ISH

[Magic 32]

[3ball]

MJ all day