How Many All-time greats....

[AirFederer]

That`s brutal

So you expected Kobe to have such a terrible finals in 04?

You expected him to miss the playoffs in 05?

You expected him to blow a 3-1 series lead in 06?

You expected him to allow the biggest finals comeback in 08 at home?

You expected him to lose by 39 in the biggest game of the year?

You expected him to get swept in 2011?


Seems like a rather low bar for Kobe. I list all these because Kobe fans always have an excuse, often valid mind you, but never listen to those same excuses/reasons for other players.

Hence the double standard.

[HOoopCityJones]

That`s brutal

How so?

Dirk has way more black marks on his career than Kobe has. This ni99a barley won a Finals because Lebron decided not to show up for some reason. Including getting his ass handed to him by an 8th seed as the favorite.

Lebron plays like himself and that boy is still Ringless with a Goat run to The Finals.

[DMAVS41]

How so?

Dirk has way more black marks on his career than Kobe has. This ni99a barley won a Finals because Lebron decided not to show up for some reason. Including getting his ass handed to him by an 8th seed as the favorite.

Lebron plays like himself and that boy is still Ringless with a Goat run to The Finals.

and we could create hypothetical situations down the line...

if the 02 kings series wasn't rigged, if Kobe didn't force his way to the Lakers to piggyback on peak Shaq, if the Grizzlies didn't gift the Lakers Pau...etc.

It's stupid and lazy.

You are shook...

Keep making threads though...it's hilarious.

This all started with you saying the following:

"Dirk isn't even a special player really"

And you said that, not because it was relevant, but because you were getting your ass handed to you in a debate.

[DMAVS41]

Again, with the deflections.

How we go from talking about him missing PO in 05 to discussing 04? Which would've been a sweep if not for Kobe.

This is why you get ignored.

It isn't a deflection. I can talk about anything I want. You have chosen to talk about things...I responded.

Now I'm asking why having two of the worst finals ever by superstars in NBA history within a 5 year stretch (00 and 04), running Shaq out, and then turning around and missing the playoffs aren't black marks?

You came up with some reasons/excuses...some I agree with...some I don't.

But why do you then think others shouldn't provide reasons/excuses? I don't even like to for Dirk in 07 because he was really bad despite terrible circumstances. I can just say...yea he was really bad.

You? You can't even do that. Why? Because your are a borderline crazy person it seems.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Only Dirk, because he was soft. He relied heavily on other members of his team to defend (being an average at best defensive player at his most effort) rebound, and distribute. He does less on the basketball court than many of his superstar peers.

He's actually very one dimensional when you think about it. Duncan, KG, LeBron, Durant, Kobe, Wade, and hell even guys like Curry, Westbrook, and Harden are all better basketball players. They do more than just score, and shoot. They assist, rebound, facilitate, and play defense.

MVP Dirk got locked up, and shut down without doubles by Stephen Jackson ALONE. One of the most pathetic MVPs, and playoff performances from an "MVP" that I've ever, or probably will ever see

[DMAVS41]

Only Dirk, because he was soft. He relied heavily on other members of his team to defend (being an average at best defensive player at his most effort) rebound, and distribute. He does less on the basketball court than many of his superstar peers.

He's actually very one dimensional when you think about it. Duncan, KG, LeBron, Durant, Kobe, Wade, and hell even guys like Curry, Westbrook, and Harden are all better basketball players. They do more than just score, and shoot. They assist, rebound, facilitate, and play defense.

MVP Dirk got locked up, and shut down without doubles by Stephen Jackson ALONE. One of the most pathetic MVPs, and playoff performances from an "MVP" that I've ever, or probably will ever see

Some of this is spot on as Dirk really played a shit series against the Warriors.

Some is total bs as well. They absolutely did not "never double" Dirk in the post. That is simply false...Dirk saw an absurd amount of attention by a group of defenders that were the perfect storm for him and the Mavs.

Also, we have to stop acting like he played the worst series ever. His game 6 was absymal, but given the circumstances...I understand it. Even with that game 6 that was over 5 minutes into the 3rd...Dirk was a 20/11/2 51% TS player in that series and won game 5 down the stretch all by himself.

Also, those Warriors were a much better team than the average 8th seed. Their entire team was hurt all year pretty much and they made some trades...and still won 42 games. That team was healthy in the playoffs and I'd guess around a 50 win team if right...maybe more.

Baron Davis was a monster that year. He led the league in offensive RAPM that season and was 7th overall iirc.

Also, Avery Johnson is an absolutely dreadful head coach and hurt us badly in that series.

Lastly...it's clearly no the worst series ever by a MVP. Rose's ECF in 2011 was clearly a worse series. Not only just in overall play, but because his team actually had chances to win that series. The Mavs in 07 got blown out of the water most of the time. Clearly a worse series...I've never seen a player get shut down and wet the bed so badly in close games than I have from Rose in 11.

Just awful

[SamuraiSWISH]

Lastly...it's clearly no the worst series ever by a MVP. Rose's ECF in 2011 was clearly a worse series. Not only just in overall play, but because his team actually had chances to win that series. The Mavs in 07 got blown out of the water most of the time. Clearly a worse series...I've never seen a player get shut down and wet the bed so badly in close games than I have from Rose in 11.

Just awful

The youngest MVP ever (22) in the Conference Finals v.s. an all-time great, stacked Heat team? Being defended by DPOY caliber, freak athlete and Top 10 player ever in LeBron for large stretches? A team that would go to 4x Finals, winning 2 of them? At one point went on a 20+ game winning streak, and won over 60 games?

It isn't NEAR as bad as getting shut down by undrafted Stephen Jackson in your prime, and losing in the first round as a 60+ win team to an 8th seed. A team they got beat the very next round, and had no all-time great or all-time great defender on their roster.

Dirk's was much worse. Context tells us to anyone without a bias. Keep trying though.

[HOoopCityJones]

Only Dirk, because he was soft. He relied heavily on other members of his team to defend (being an average at best defensive player at his most effort) rebound, and distribute. He does less on the basketball court than many of his superstar peers.

He's actually very one dimensional when you think about it. Duncan, KG, LeBron, Durant, Kobe, Wade, and hell even guys like Curry, Westbrook, and Harden are all better basketball players. They do more than just score, and shoot. They assist, rebound, facilitate, and play defense.

MVP Dirk got locked up, and shut down without doubles by Stephen Jackson ALONE. One of the most pathetic MVPs, and playoff performances from an "MVP" that I've ever, or probably will ever see

Wouldn't expect anything less from a Coach. You been on a roll today tho tbh

[SamuraiSWISH]

Wouldn't expect anything less from a Coach. You been on a roll today tho tbh

You being facetious, bro? I coached AAU IL Speed, that dude who made that post was lying through his teeth. Pretty sure it was an alt of meyhaM24. Creep is obsessed with me.

Check out another thread where DMAVS41 is trying to say 22 year old Rose's 2011 ECF being guarded by DPOY caliber LeBron was worse MVP performance than prime Dirk's utterly embarassing 2007 1st round guarded by Stephen Jackson.

[DMAVS41]

The youngest MVP ever (22) in the Conference Finals v.s. an all-time great, stacked Heat team? Being defended by DPOY caliber, freak athlete and Top 10 player ever in LeBron for large stretches? A team that would go to 4x Finals, winning 2 of them? At one point went on a 20+ game winning streak, and won over 60 games?

It isn't NEAR as bad as getting shut down by undrafted Stephen Jackson in your prime, and losing in the first round as a 60+ win team to an 8th seed. A team they got beat the very next round, and had no all-time great or all-time great defender on their roster.

Dirk's was much worse. Context tells us to anyone without a bias. Keep trying though.

Age has nothing to do with it. Rose was MVP and he played worse than Dirk. Simple as that.

20/11/2 51% TS

vs.

23/4/7 44% TS

That doesn't even do it justice. The ball hogging, the blown ft's late, 20% 4th qtr shooting, horrible game ending turnovers.

I've never seen a MVP play that poorly in a series before. Ever. Even with more difficult circumstances...doesn't make up for just a beyond dreadful series.

And please stop being biased...the Warriors were a terrible matchup for Dirk and the Mavs. You see Jackson and Barnes and those guys and think it's not a terrible matchup, but it was. That 07 Mavs team would have done much better against a team like the 11 Heat actually. Matchups man...it makes everything in the playoffs.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Age has nothing to do with it. Rose was MVP and he played worse than Dirk. Simple as that.

Age has nothing to do with it? 3rd season v.s. being at peak / prime? You give LeBron a pass for years for his horrendous performance in the 2007 Finals at the same age Rose was.

Peak Dirk 2007 Reg:
25 ppg, 9 rpg, 3 apg on 50% FG

22 yo Rose 2011 Reg:
25 ppg, 4 rpg, 8 apg on 45% FG

Peak Dirk 2007 Playoffs:
20 ppg, 11 rpg, 2 apg on 38% FG defended by smaller Stephen Jackson, Lost 1st Round

22 yo Rose 2011 Playoffs:
27 ppg, 4 rpg, 8 apg on 40% FG defended by larger LeBron James, Lost ECF

Yes ... clearly Dirk was so much better. Context considering. Losing to an 8th seed in the 1st round, at your peak, defended by undrafted Stephen Jackson

v.s.

Losing to an all-time great 2x champ stacked Heat team, at 22 years old, defended by top ten player ever, and DPOY caliber LeBron James.

Dirk's 2007 playoffs (one round) was clearly worse than Rose's 2011 playoffs.

[HOoopCityJones]

You being facetious, bro? I coached AAU IL Speed, that dude who made that post was lying through his teeth. Pretty sure it was an alt of meyhaM24. Creep is obsessed with me.

Check out another thread where DMAVS41 is trying to say 22 year old Rose's 2011 ECF being guarded by DPOY caliber LeBron was worse MVP performance than prime Dirk's utterly embarassing 2007 1st round guarded by Stephen Jackson.

Nah, just giving you your props.


And yea, DMAVS says a lot of shit that's cringe worhty.

[DMAVS41]

Age has nothing to do with it? 3rd season v.s. being at peak / prime? You give LeBron a pass for years for his horrendous performance in the 2007 Finals at the same age Rose was.

Peak Dirk 2007 Reg:
25 ppg, 9 rpg, 3 apg on 50% FG

22 yo Rose 2011 Reg:
25 ppg, 4 rpg, 8 apg on 45% FG

Peak Dirk 2007 Playoffs:
20 ppg, 11 rpg, 2 apg on 38% FG defended by smaller Stephen Jackson, Lost 1st Round

22 yo Rose 2011 Playoffs:
27 ppg, 4 rpg, 8 apg on 40% FG defended by larger LeBron James, Lost ECF

Yes ... clearly Dirk was so much better. Context considering. Losing to an 8th seed in the 1st round, at your peak, defended by undrafted Stephen Jackson

v.s.

Losing to an all-time great 2x champ stacked Heat team, at 22 years old, defended by top ten player ever, and DPOY caliber LeBron James.

Dirk's 2007 playoffs (one round) was clearly worse than Rose's 2011 playoffs.

Peak Dirk wasn't 2007 though. That is one of many flaws here.

11 Rose was absolutely his peak.

It doesn't matter the round...try this on for size...Rose has never beaten a team in the playoffs close to as good as the 07 Warriors were.

Again...you are artificially propping Rose for age (again...that wasn't the distinction you made) and for opponent.

The 07 Mavs would have gladly played the 11 Heat instead of the Warriors. You aren't getting that...not sure why.

Do you notice how you only want context used for Rose here? Do you see that? That you want to talk about all that shit and none of it with Dirk? And go as far as to just make shit up about how Dirk was never doubled even though that simply is false?

Even saying all that...you'll see I don't like to defend Dirk's series. I do it only when I have to because of morons like you that make shit up.

Rose fans are very similar to Kobe fans...they always want the player excused for playing like shit. They can't own it.

And yea, I totally agree the circumstances were harder on Rose. I'd say Rose more than evens that out by shooting 7% worse TS% and having multiple horrid chokes down the stretch of close games.

Just me though...

[IllegalD]

Black marks in Dirk's career:

1) Unable to win with 2004 Superteam of 5 Allstar Level Players (Dirk, Nash, Finley, Antawn Jamison, Antoine Walker)





2) Choking 13 point lead, 6 minutes away from being up 3-0 in the 2006 finals, missing game-tying FT at the end. (choking away 2006 finals as a whole)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l50IKDVpDiM

3) Biggest upset in NBA Playoffs History, 67 win Mavs lose to 8th seed Warriors.

[Hey Yo]

The youngest MVP ever (22) in the Conference Finals v.s. an all-time great, stacked Heat team? Being defended by DPOY caliber, freak athlete and Top 10 player ever in LeBron for large stretches? A team that would go to 4x Finals, winning 2 of them? At one point went on a 20+ game winning streak, and won over 60 games?

It isn't NEAR as bad as getting shut down by undrafted Stephen Jackson in your prime, and losing in the first round as a 60+ win team to an 8th seed. A team they got beat the very next round, and had no all-time great or all-time great defender on their roster.

Dirk's was much worse. Context tells us to anyone without a bias. Keep trying though.

The Bulls were probably the favorites going into that ECF series (not sure though) due to the sweep they handed the Heat during the regular season.

By no means did anyone think Miami would win that series the way they did or even at all considering the Bulls had HCA and the MVP