Who looks better at the game of basketball: Butch Komives vs Mathew Dellavadova

[Dr.J4ever]

What does that have to do with Mathew Dellavadova and Komives?

And I think only Lebron James is more athletic than Dr J at the small forward spot all-time, and he still doesn't do the things Doc did he surpasesses him only because he's so much bigger and stronger. Doc is an outlier, his hands were bigger than Kareem's, he's not a representation of "average". Which is what this thread is about. BTW he wasn't the first high flyer either, Gus Johnson and Connie Hawkins were playing above the rim in a similar giant-hand waiving the ball around style before him.

Well, the point is and maybe I didn't add that it's not just superstars that are producing highlight reel stuff. Even relatively average players are driving the lanes and producing spectacular dunks. Overall athleticism is getting better and better.

Your point on Deladova and Kom is that average players can be similar if you compare the 60s to other eras, but I can't agree. I mean, there are always exceptions and there must have been a couple of Dr. J types before he came along, but they would be few and far between.

Today, as I said, Doc would not be so unique coming in.

[CavaliersFTW]

Well, the point is and maybe I didn't add that it's not just superstars that are producing highlight reel stuff. Even relatively average players are driving the lanes and producing spectacular dunks. Overall athleticism is getting better and better.

Your point on Deladova and Kom is that average players can be similar if you compare the 60s to other eras, but I can't agree. I mean, there are always exceptions and there must have been a couple of Dr. J types before he came along, but they would be few and far between.

Today, as I said, Doc would not be so unique coming in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gKjEKroCPg

You mean like that?

You should watch the ABA documentary again. I'm sure you've watched it before, but watch it again.

The high flying dunks through the lanes were not something players were once "not capable of" doing. That was something a lot of players could have done in the NBA, but the brand/culture of NBA basketball discouraged it. The ABA, so as to distance itself from the NBA and in an effort to be more entertaining, encouraged it's players to dunk as much as possible.

I think in that ABA documentary they mentioned something like you'd see 3 or 4 dunks in an NBA game, and 17-20 dunks in an ABA game. And that the ABA dunk culture carried over after the merger, not just the 3 point line.

It isn't that Doctor J paved the way for the super athlete above the rim, honestly, above the rim players were there before him that's just the romanticized angle that's like when people say Bill Russell invented the blocked shot. He didn't. Doc wasn't the first great high flyer, he even admits so and goes on to mention guys like Hawkins and Johnson, and before them Baylor whenever people suggest to him that he was.

[LAZERUSS]

I really don't think OP (and Laz) get the concept of the difference the talent around you makes in a game of basketball.

Joel Embiid can stand in a corner and knock down trey after trey in practice. However, in a real game (NCAA) he never ever did that. Just because people can do certain things does not mean they can handle doing it when the speed, ferocity of the game, defenses scrambling, etc are all at a different level.

In those old clips (yes I watched) the player looks good. No one is (or should) argue that. He is a skilled, good basketball player.

However, if that same player time transported to the modern era the speed of the defenses, and the level of player is just so much improved that it is very unlikely he would "look" the same, or have close to the same impact.

It's really not a knock on that player. Had he been born in the 80's and had the same training, and competition, he may have made it. Who knows. Or, would he have been just another good player, but not NBA quality. We can't really predict it on an individual basis, but can say as a whole the NBA talent level is significantly higher now for non superstars than it was in prior eras.

There is footage of a 7-0 Thon Maker on YouTube dribbling like a guard, and hitting high school 3's. But, then there is REALITY. His idiotic head coach is trying to make him into a Dirk, and instead he is a Dork. How come I say that? Because against HIGH SCHOOL competition, he isn't even shooting 50% from the field....which is aided by his 28% shooting from the high school 3pt line. It is a complete WASTE of talent to take a player who should be learning POST SKILLS, and just because ESPN shows highlights of Dirk draining three's then he should be, as well.

BTW, there is YouTube footage of Wilt hitting FOUR STRAIGHT Hook shots from the corner, and winning a bet on the 4th one. Now, with the limited footage that exists on Chamberlain, there is not even one shot like that. And there is a good chance that it never happened in a game, either. Why? Because he was a GREAT POST player with a myriad of moves and range up to 15 ft.

Watch footage of Jason "White Chocolate" Williams, and then of John Stockton. If a fan didn't know anything about the game, he would probably believe that Williams was ten times the player that Stockton was. Well, we know the REALITY, and it was the complete opposite.

Basketball is not about "highlight" plays, but rather about solid skills. And the skill level has not changed in 50 years. One only need to look at the current NBA's FT%...which is at .753. In the 58-59 season it was at .756.

[Dr.J4ever]

My problem with your post is that you are comparing athleticism, with skill. Look, there have been many NBA players that were amazing athletes. Where is James White today? How come Zach Lavine isn't worth a damn? Why doesn't Gerald Green dominate? Ryan Hollins and Javale McGee, two seven-footrs with great athleticism and couldn't even dominate in college, much less the pros.

And how about the reverse? Does anyone believe that Bird was an athletic freak? How about John Stockton and Steve Nash? Look at Dennis Rodman, or Kevin Love, or before their time, Swen Nater. How did the 6-1 Gail Goodrich routinely score in the paint? And how about the 6-5 Adrian Dantley, who was one of the greatest POST players in NBA history?

I mentioned Shaq earlier. What separated him from the 7-4, 350 lb Priest Lauderdale? And how come the 7-3 Swede Halbrook didn't dominate in the 60's, or that the 7-4 Steve Turner couldn't make an NBA roster in the early 70's. Or that the 7-7 Manute Bol was a complete waste. Or that the 7-6 Shawn Bradley was among the worst starting centers of his era? Or that the 7-1+ Roy Hibbert routinely is shut down in today's NBA, despite being one of the largest players in the league.

Basketball is a game of SKILL, much moreso than of athleticism (albeit, all NBA players are among the best athletes in the world.) And, as the Rodman's and Ben Wallaces' have proven...of determination and grit.

Would Dr. J be among the best players in the league today? Absolutely...just as Bird, or West, or Rodman would be.

No question on your points about skill, and you're right that I was only talking about athleticism. The best basketball players aren't necessarily the best athletes. All I said is that modern NBAers are on average more athletic.

[Jameerthefear]

There is footage of a 7-0 Thon Maker on YouTube dribbling like a guard, and hitting high school 3's. But, then there is REALITY. His idiotic head coach is trying to make him into a Dirk, and instead he is a Dork. How come I say that? Because against HIGH SCHOOL competition, he isn't even shooting 50% from the field....which is aided by his 28% shooting from the high school 3pt line. It is a complete WASTE of talent to take a player who should be learning POST SKILLS, and just because ESPN shows highlights of Dirk draining three's then he should be, as well.

BTW, there is YouTube footage of Wilt hitting FOUR STRAIGHT Hook shots from the corner, and winning a bet on the 4th one. Now, with the limited footage that exists on Chamberlain, there is not even one shot like that. And there is a good chance that it never happened in a game, either. Why? Because he was a GREAT POST player with a myriad of moves and range up to 15 ft.

Watch footage of Jason "White Chocolate" Williams, and then of John Stockton. If a fan didn't know anything about the game, he would probably believe that Williams was ten times the player that Stockton was. Well, we know the REALITY, and it was the complete opposite.

Basketball is not about "highlight" plays, but rather about solid skills. And the skill level has not changed in 50 years. One only need to look at the current NBA's FT%...which is at .753. In the 58-59 season it was at .756.

[LAZERUSS]

Yep...the new "Zach Lavine" generation...

[Dr.J4ever]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gKjEKroCPg

You mean like that?

You should watch the ABA documentary again. I'm sure you've watched it before, but watch it again.

The high flying dunks through the lanes were not something players were once "not capable of" doing. That was something a lot of players could have done in the NBA, but the brand/culture of NBA basketball discouraged it. The ABA, so as to distance itself from the NBA and in an effort to be more entertaining, encouraged it's players to dunk as much as possible.

I think in that ABA documentary they mentioned something like you'd see 3 or 4 dunks in an NBA game, and 17-20 dunks in an ABA game. And that the ABA dunk culture carried over after the merger, not just the 3 point line.

It isn't that Doctor J paved the way for the super athlete above the rim, honestly, above the rim players were there before him that's just the romanticized angle that's like when people say Bill Russell invented the blocked shot. He didn't. Doc wasn't the first great high flyer, he even admits so and goes on to mention guys like Hawkins and Johnson, and before them Baylor whenever people suggest to him that he was.

Okay, I will check that docu.

Yes, I know Doc goes on to credit others that went before, but c'mon he was by far the most spectacular. Players that came after him took up the mantle, and this is why the game is constantly evolving. The next generation of talents pick up where the last left of and try to improve upon it.

I've been watching the NBA for 33 years, and I can say players are more athletic overall, but they are not necessarily better. This is where we shouldn't generalize and should go player to player.

[CavaliersFTW]

Okay, I will check that docu.

Yes, I know Doc goes on to credit others that went before, but c'mon he was by far the most spectacular. Players that came after him took up the mantle, and this is why the game is constantly evolving. The next generation of talents pick up where the last left of and try to improve upon it.

I've been watching the NBA for 33 years, and I can say players are more athletic overall, but they are not necessarily better. This is where we shouldn't generalize and should go player to player.

That's all I'm trying to point out, I never got to watch the NBA for as long as you, but watching film I see that similar pattern. That's why I made the thread about two players with names. One plays in the NBA today, one played 40 years ago. I deliberately picked non-superstars because I always hear the "superstars could play in any era" thing but that's usually implying, or some times flat out declaring that the other guys couldn't. But honestly, at least watching them play the game I just don't get why a role player in one era couldn't still be an effective role player in another. At least some of them, as individuals at least.

Elgin Baylor when asked about who could play in today's era etc, says "I think a lot of guys who played then could play today, I don't think the game has changed that much." and he sort of emphasized the "that much." (then he proceeds to explain what the changes are).

You know like, why wouldn't Komives be able to have made the Cavs if he were swapped with say, Dellavadova? Looks like maybe the same caliber player on the offensive end, but a slightly better defensive player. He's just a roleplayer in the 60's, never an all-star though not necessarily a scrub. He's no Wilt, Russell, West, Robertson, or Baylor... but so what? Why can't an average player in one era still just be an average player in another.

[ThickassGlasses]

I don't see how you can watch those clips and say they are the same level of athletes. It's night and day even compared to a high level highschool game.



Note, that means the average player from that clip would look a stiff in most competitive highschool championship games of the modern era. He might be the best player out there but he would look like a stiff.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Literally no-one in his right mind would claim that "1000s of times more kids grow up aspiring to and pursuing a career in the NBA today as compared with the 60s". Just taking into account how rare, even today, it is for someone to grow to a height of 6'7, especially when we're (mostly) talking about a country with an average male height which hasn't been altered substantially for decades and is similar to the height of most developed countries, but not very close to the average height of countries like the Netherlands, let alone even taller (like 6'10+) and the fact that, despite excessive trolling, 6'6-6'7 is basically what the average NBA height has been from the early 60's onwards, it makes zero sense to argue anywhere near such an absurd number. Not to mention raw talent and the fact that 1,000 Baylors certainly don't exist today, neither do 1,000 Oscars, let alone 1,000 Wilts or Kareems.

Which is why i said that it is mostly guard/wing play that has improved....being betweem 6-6'6 is not that rare at all...in fact it is pretty common.

As far as 1000x being an exaggeration.....maybe it is but the overall point still stands...chris paul had to compete against 100s of times more players trying to play in the NBA to become a 6 ft point guard than somebody like Bob Cousy.

[CavaliersFTW]

I don't see how you can watch those clips and say they are the same level of athletes. It's night and day even compared to a high level highschool game.



Note, that means the average player from that clip would look a stiff in most competitive highschool championship games of the modern era. He might be the best player out there but he would look like a stiff.

Your glasses need to be a little thicker I think

[Jameerthefear]

Yep...the new "Zach Lavine" generation...

Yes, Lavine defines this generation Your autism is hilarious.

[StephHamann]

Mathew Dellavedova:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io8jN53qx7Q

beasting against MVP Harden

love me some Delly

[ralph_i_el]

Nate Wolters>Delly>Bob Cousy
Nate Wolters - Rookie Highlights ᴴᴰ: http://youtu.be/toxelO86YMs

[CavaliersFTW]

Nate Wolters>Delly>Bob Cousy
Nate Wolters - Rookie Highlights ᴴᴰ: http://youtu.be/toxelO86YMs

Let's keep this apples to apples, post single same game highlights only please.