Lebron actually played one season under the old rules

[Roundball_Rock]

Only thing that matter is winning a ring and how you won it. Lebron's legacy will be tainted with that collusion bs he pulled and if you support it than you're even more of a joker.

Name one basketball legend whose achievements are diminished by the team he had around him. People simply don't care about that when assessing players' legacies. Team achievements are, rightly or wrongly, taken at face value.

I hated the Heatles formation as much as anyone in 2010 and 2011 but no one will care about it down the road. That Miami collapsed without him helps him as well. If Miami won 50-55 games without him that would have hurt LeBron and given credence to the "Miami was stacked" claims.

[Beastmode88]

Name one basketball legend whose achievements are diminished by the team he had around him. People simply don't care about that when assessing players' legacies. Team achievements are, rightly or wrongly, taken at face value.

I hated the Heatles formation as much as anyone in 2010 and 2011 but no one will care about it down the road. That Miami collapsed without him helps him as well. If Miami won 50-55 games without him that would have hurt LeBron and given credence to the "Miami was stacked" claims.

Lol are you really going to bring the 93 bulls into this... wow.

[3ball]

as expected as soon as Wilt and KAJ come up suddenly we need to adjust for pace--but not for Jordan versus LeBron.

When you adjust Wilt and KAJ's playoff numbers for pace and playing time, MJ blows them away, just like he does Lebron:


Per-100 Possession Stats Thru 29 Years of Age: PLAYOFFS:

Jordan: 43.9 PPG / 8.4 APG / 50.1% FG / 58.1% TS / 35.2% 3 PT
Lebron: 36.3 PPG / 8.4 APG / 48.2% FG / 57.8% TS / 33.3% 3 PT




We don't have Per-100 Possession stats for the Finals, but as the per game stats show, Lebron must play 1.5 Finals games to match 1 game from MJ:


Per Game Averages in Finals - Thru 29 Years Old:

Jordan: 36.3 PPG / 7.9 APG / 52.6% FG / 40.7% 3 PT
Lebron: 24.1 PPG / 6.3 APG / 46.3% FG / 30.2% 3 PT

[Roundball_Rock]

Lol are you really going to bring the 93 bulls into this... wow.

No, I am bringing preseason predictions in. If Miami was the "most stacked team of all-time" it follows that losing any one player would still leave it as a good team. Many people made that prediction, and if you truly believed Miami was stacked in 2014, it was eminently logical. My point is their collapse makes LeBron look good and undercuts the "Miami was stacked/collusion/etc." angle. Does it eliminate it? No but it certainly weakens that argument. You know full well if Miami remained competitive we would never hear the end of it.

When you adjust Wilt and KAJ's playoff numbers for pace and playing time, MJ blows them away, just like he does Lebron:

Let's see the numbers and pace adjustments for all 4. How about throwing prime Bird and prime Shaq in there too?

[24-Inch_Chrome]

3ball, do you not understand that no one is saying LeBron > Jordan? What everyone, myself included, seems to object to are your constant, pathetic attempts to discredit great modern players.

Westbrook goes on a tear, cue 3ball threads talking about how Jordan > Westbrook, despite the fact that no one said Westbrook was better than Jordan. The same thing happened with LeBron, ever since Cleveland's resurgence he's been a constant target. For whatever reason you have some serious issue with people giving credit to or being in awe of any player not named 'Michael Jordan.'

Just because Westbrook is my favorite player, or I consider LeBron an all-time great caliber player (read: NOT GOAT, JUST TOP-10 LEVEL GREAT) doesn't mean I'm discrediting Jordan as the best ever. The only people who seriously argue that LeBron is the GOAT are trolls/stans/the LeBron family. I give credit to players like LeBron and Westbrook because what they're doing is amazing, I don't understand how you manage to see that as a slight against Jordan.

Insecure Jordan fans like you who feel this ridiculous need to discredit any player performing at an elite level are part of why I don't like Jordan, all you do is contribute to the mythology by shitting on every other player and their accomplishments. All you do is spit out the same argument/talking points ad nauseam whenever someone is playing well.

[3ball]

Let's see the numbers and pace adjustments for all 4. How about throwing prime Bird and prime Shaq in there too?

Nah, too much work - MJ destroys Lebron by scoring between 25% and 50% more in the playoffs and Finals WITH MORE PASSING and better efficiency.. What more could anyone ask for?.. No need to shit on everyone.. It's enough fun shitting on Lebron.

All this talk about dribble-penetration is actually pretty funny - MJ was an off-ball player and didn't rely on dribble-penetration to get in the lane anyway.. Typically, fans and media mistakenly think Jordan employed the same style as Harden, or another one of today's ball-dominant wings that hogs time of possession away from teammates.

But MJ usually scored off of catch-and-go's.. Spacing and a clear lane are an off-ball player's dream, since they can beat defenders to to the open paint.. Also, since the spacing enhances ball movement, players who act quickly on the catch when the ball is swung will take the best advantage of a shifting, spaced-out defense.

The question becomes - would MJ use his off-ball game to take advantage of the spacing and easier ball movement, or his GOAT primary ballhandler game to take advantage of the wider driving lanes and less physical resistance against penetration?.

It's quite possible he'd decide to rely more on his primary ballhandler game just like everyone else today, although he would probably play off-ball a lot too so he could still win at the highest level - but the fact that he has the option of falling back on his GOAT off-ball game is just one reason why he'd have a big advantage on all other wing players in today's game.
.

[Roundball_Rock]

The NBA scored 106.5 in Kareem's peak year (1977) and 106.3 in Jordan's peak year (1991). Chicago played at a 95.6 pace and L.A. at a 104.7 pace. That is a difference of 8.7%. Instead of calculating by 8.7% let's just knock KAJ down by 10%, even though scoring was the same in 77' as it was in 91'.

91' Jordan in the playoffs: 31/6/8/2/1 on 52.4%
77' Kareem in the playoffs: 35/18/4/2/4 on 60.7%
KAJ minus 10%: 32/16/4/2/4 on 60.7%

Which is better? 31/6/8 with 2 steals and 1 block or 32/16/4 with 4 blocks and 2 steals? Do Jordan's 4 extra assists make up for KAJ producing 3 more blocks and 10 more rebounds? KAJ did all this on greater efficiency.

Adjusting solely for pace is unfair to KAJ because it penalizes him but then does not penalize Jordan for being in an era where offensive efficiency was greater and for being in a higher scoring team (Chicago scored 110 a game while L.A. scored 107 a game).

[JT123]

How the hell has this obvious troll thread gone 14 pages?
3ball truly is the greatest. Only he could post such obvious bait and have posters actually attempting to give him serious responses.

[3ball]

Jordan blows KAJ and Wilt away when you adjust for pace - it's not close.

And shame on you for even comparing KAJ to Jordan..

KAJ was the #2 for four of his six championships, and he had FAR more help for all of them - it's not even close how much more help he had.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan blows KAJ and Wilt away when you adjust for pace - it's not close.

Adjusted for pace, KAJ>MJ and Wilt>MJ.

KAJ won 4 rings as the #1 option and should have 2-3 more but he did not have great luck with injuries to his teammates like some other legends did. Besides, if rings are the be all end all then Russell is the clear GOAT.